Nope. I await your condescending post. I wouldn't bother to me keeping animals in captivity comes with responsibilities if it is to be more than cruel imprisonment for entertainments sake. SeaWorld fails in those responsibilities. Weather you agree or disagree PETA SeaWorld is an awful institution. Comparing it to South Lakes is harsh towards South Lakes at least they don't make their animals perform ridiculous tricks, a practice which is completely out-dated and goes against their claims of being educational and working on conservation
Actually their new show is closer to something you'd see at a normal zoo,and no trick performed in any SeaWorld show is not found in the wild,unless someone wants to claim orcas don't jump in the wild. And I disagree with PETA *and* disagree that SeaWorld is an awful institution. Guess I'm an anomaly. And for future reference,posting a link from PETA themselves and expecting people to not be condescending towards you will not work well.
They can't even keep keepers on side SeaWorld ex-employee John Hargrove, an experienced orca trainer, gives us his perspective on the current controversy surrounding keeping whales in captivity [EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW] : News : Nature World News
It *is* natural to die when repeatedly waterboarded...... From my point of view, I think both South Lakes and Seaworld - neither of which I am the greatest fan of - are bastions of morality compared to Guantanamo Bay! But as you have noted in the past, you believe the continued existence of humanity is undesirable, so I daresay human death *is* preferable to potential animal suffering in your moral scale. And at least SeaWorld don't mix predator and prey species in the same enclosure and make transparent excuses when the prey species get eaten or mauled which certainly goes against any claims of conservation and is educational only in the sense it teaches people about the food chain!
They jump because they want to when it serves a purpose for them as they swim in the ocean. At SeaWorld the jump because money driven fools make them so inbred brain dead fools can clap, much like the seals in the shows. Though seals are more intelligent than the average SeaWorld visitor. I don't think any intuitions that have any credibility continue to do animal shows
The difference is prisoners have made choices that have lead them to be where they are. So, until America start plucking random people of the streets as they fancy someone to torture, a prisoner dying is preferable to an animal dying prematurely or suffering for the entertainment of humans. Perhaps SeaWorld and south lakes should create a joint venture I'm sure Daves 'hand rearing' skills will come in handy when baby orcas disappear from their mothers care.
You post ad hominem attacks like that and expect people to enter into a serious and reasoned discussion with you? Talking of, you never *did* return to this thread in order to post the second half of your argument, which you stated would be on the topic of ethics and research. I disagreed with many of the points you made in the first portion of your argument, but it was still a good argument with scope for discussion and counterpoints on both sides. This level of discussion is what I'd like to see more of. Oh, and as it is a complex and highly politically charged issue, I think it may be best if we stay away from the topic of Guantanamo Bay and associated topics now, lest the thread be dragged off-topic.
Sorry Dave - but the cretinous, ill-informed and misanthropic comments made by this rather foolish person cannot be left unchallenged! Seeking an equivalence between the suffering of an animal and that of a person is an absurd game - hence my question as to this poster's age - but to then suggest that a death of a prisoner in Guantanamo would be preferable to the "suffering" of an animal "for the entertainment of humans" shows a worrying lack of awareness of the rather dubious reasons for which some have found themselves locked up, and a cavalier approach to human life which is, again, indicative of the immaturity that is this person's hallmark.
Did you clap? Did you have less respect, empathy or compassion for animals after your visit, or more? Do you have any interest in learning or considering new information or other's opinions? If not, perhaps you are more "brain dead" than the rest of the visitors?
By the sounds of it I'm beginning to wonder if we're dealing with a fool or a 14 year old.... Extreme digs at intelligence and accusing people of being inbred while refusing to see facts? Yep. Sounds like a 14 year old.
No I did not clap, even at 9 I knew it was wrong. My respect or empathy was unchanged, are you implying it's ok to treat animals the way SeaWorld does because it will increase empathy and respect?! If some one can produce evidence that the animals are well kept and have a good standard of life and aren't just used to line pockets then yes I will listen but as no one has provided this....
Evidence? Ask and ye shall receive. This is a study done comparing exact measurements of captive versus both Northern Resident and Southern Resident Orcas showing mortality, birthrate, birthing age, etc. If you are able to read the metrics, the data lines up exactly between all the populations - including captive. Comparisons of life-history parameters between free-ranging and captive killer whale (Orcinus orca) populations for application toward species management | Journal of Mammalogy
Immaturity? No. Why is a humans life worth more than an orcas? Our arrogance leads us to belive we are something special but when our achievements are weighed up we've done much more harm than good. As humans we are damaging the environment and other animals by just going about our daily business. What global problems have orcas or any other animal caused? I think it is immature and lacks self awareness to not see the human race for what it is. Are we all bad? No but the whole planet would be vastly better off if there were significantly less humans.
Fewer humans. Not "less". Fewer. I'm afraid I'm going to duck out of this conversation for now. I find you depressing. And not only because of your grammar and spelling.
Sooty (may I call you Sooty?), I find myself in rare agreement with you but can't help but feel you're wasting your time. This is a person posting PETA blog posts to a zoo enthusiast forum, so "cretin" seems like a fair evaluation. I don't believe this thread serves any purpose and if I didn't know better I'd assume it was a terribly ill-conceived attempt at astroturfing. Anyway, it's my opinion that pointing out grammatical errors weakens your position in a dispute.
I've been following this thread for some time, and while agree there has been a lot of juvenile language, poor grammar and reasoning, faulty logic, and emotional outbursts without much factual support, I did feel the need to answer this post: I can and did read the metrics (I was an ecology/evolutionary biology major and wrote a thesis focusing on statistical error in population biology) and think you have to take this study with a grain of salt. As the author points out, "Life expectancy cannot be determined from the data for any of the populations as the oldest known-age animals are still living." Given that life expectancy is one of the key statistics at issue in many of the grievances of PETA/Blackfish producers/other opponents against Sea World, I don't think this study establishes much. The only metrics that can be compared are of the mortality rates of "known-age animals" in the wild with those of captivity. Given the extremely small sample size of captive specimens, I'm not overly comfortable with extrapolating too much from them. And, in the interest of fairness, look at the authors' affiliations: Todd R. Robeck*, Kevin Willis, Michael R. Scarpuzzi and Justine K. O’Brien SeaWorld and Busch Gardens Reproductive Research Center, SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment, 2595 Ingraham Road, San Diego, CA 92019, USA (TRR, JKO) Minnesota Zoo, 13000 Zoo Boulevard, Apple Valley, MN 55124, USA (KW) SeaWorld San Diego, 500 SeaWorld Drive, San Diego, CA 92019, USA (MRS) Not, perhaps, the most unbiased souls in this particular debate. As for my own personal biases: I am a zoo-lover, and would consider myself far more aligned with the AZA than with PETA. I grew up within 20 minutes of the now-gone Sea World Ohio, loved going there as I grew up, worked there for two summers during college, and became friends with many of the trainers who worked with the orcas and other animals. I've followed the controversy over Sea World for some time, long before Blackfish premiered, and have found that my opinion has changed over time. I have seen Sea World change its focus over time and through different owners. And I'm thoroughly convinced that the way Sea World keeps it orcas in captivity is wrong and that Sea World should discontinue its captive breeding and end its orca program once the current individuals die out. I am not someone who believes that the whales should (or indeed can) be humanely be returned to the wild, but thoroughly believe that the whales are being bred and kept solely for profit. While I think there is some value in allowing people to glimpse and see this magnificent species, the way the animals are kept and managed in captivity does not, to my mind, cancels that out. And the premise that Sea World's orca shows is based on the showcasing of natural behavior and focusing on educating the public about the whales is, to my mind, rather insulting. Most troubling is the company's mantra when it comes to facts about the whales and the many instances I've both seen and read where facts are misrepresented or, in some cases, blatantly lied about. The attempts to build better exhibits for the whales are, in one sense, a great development, but sadly, to my mind, they represent the sad attempt of a company to justify its continued breeding program and its continued use of the whales to bolster its bottom line. To my mind, orcas are one of those oceanic species, like most cetaceans and larger meat-eating sharks to name a few, that we cannot currently keep well in captivity. That's not to say that we could never keep them well, but I'd like to see better dolphin husbandry and exhibitry be developed/perfected before I could ever stand behind the continued captive holding of orcas. I, for one, find it telling that there are (to my knowledge) no non-profit organizations that continue to attempt to breed orcas. The saddest thing about this thread and much of the debate over orcas in the wake of Blackfish is that many take the position that one's thoughts on orcas in captivity and Sea World policies in general necessarily equate to an agreement with the PETA stance on captivity in general (or even all of PETA's claims related to orcas in captivity). Count me as a strong supporter of zoos in general with strong reservations about the continued keeping of orcas by Sea World or any other organization, at least in the way the species is currenly being kept.
Not trying to argue with you here,but this seems a bit like faulty logic to me. As SeaWorld husbandry improved and mortality rates began to decrease greatly,and the wildly unpopular drive hunts ended,you began to oppose SeaWorld? I feel like most people would move in the opposite direction. I agree that the focus is changed,and it seems like right now,unfortunately,roller coasters and thrill rides are somewhat of a priority,but at the same time improvements are being made on numerous animal exhibits,with new shark exhibits being built in Orlando (despite accompanying a new coaster),a new dolphin exhibit being built in San Antonio,and Blue World Projects in various stages of development for all three parks,so it's clear animal care is very much still a focus,just not as much of a focus as it should be. (Also,I've heard many people suggest an end to breeding programs,but I'm genuinely curious, how exactly would that be done? Yes,a.i. could be stopped,but how exactly does one stop two orcas from mating? Has birth control been used before?)
