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Hardest species to breed..?

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by NZ Jeremy, 16 Dec 2007.

  1. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Hard to breed- Eastern Lowland Gorilla- only one ever survived(at Antwerp) and nowadays impossible to breed as there is no male.
     
  2. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

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    Difficult to breed? Some stork species (like marabou storks f.e.) were already mentioned; equally difficult quite a bunch of birds like the Bulwer's Pheasant. The Shoebill is another great example: no successful captive breeding so far worldwide. Not to mention various species of fish, amphibians or reptiles,too, that have never reproduced in captivity.
    In recent years, American zoos have been quite successful in reproducing Komodo Dragons. It should only be a matter of time until there is more than enough surplus US Dragon offspring to send them to all the zoos outside of the USA. So the next time You go to Your local yet-Komodo-less zoo, You can assume that one day "Here There Be Dragons". ;)
     
  3. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    ..... and then at the specialist reptile dealers too....:(
     
  4. Newzooboy

    Newzooboy Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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  5. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    thats how auckland zooa acheived sucess with golden cats
     
  6. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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  7. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

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    A problem when breeding Clouded leopards is the often observed aggression between males and females-which already prompted some institutions like New Orleans to try AI.

    @Pertinax: You can already get Komodos from animal dealers-it's just very, very expensive...
    And about the gorillas: I don't think they differ much from the Western Lowland Gorilla when it comes to breeding; it's just that nobody really tried.

    Quite a few of the pinnipeds have never reproduced in a zoo, f.e. Baikal seal or leopard seal.
     
  8. ^Chris^

    ^Chris^ Well-Known Member

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    Just a note: As well as Marwell, Colchester and Suffolk Wildlife Park with Fossa, I think Newquay Zoo has them.
     
  9. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I should have known...:(:(

    Re the Gorillas- agreed- but having no Eastern male still makes them very hard to breed!
     
  10. CZJimmy

    CZJimmy Well-Known Member

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    I know this may be controversial, but what would it be like to import some Eastern Gorillas from the wild?

    Given their current rate of decline, Eastern Gorillas could be distributed to collections which are the most capable of holding and breeding them in order to create a surviving captive population.

    Feel free to shoot this idea down, it's just a thought which i don't think i agree with anyway...
     
  11. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Are you talking about Eastern Lowland Gorillas- or 'true' Mountain Gorillas here- or both perhaps?

    I'm always surprised more zoos haven't tried to aquire Eastern Lowland gorillas- population-wise they are still in their thousands so a small importation into some zoos with good proven gorilla-breeding experience, might be possible without to much critisism.

    I think the Mountain Gorilla population is so small that any removal of animals into captivity is probably inadvisable- it is just too much of a risk as if they didn't breed in captivity, they would instead form a significant loss to the wild breeding population. I appreciate poaching is just as likely to wipe them out, but I don't know if captive breeding has ever been seriously considered for this species. The overriding view still seems to be they shouldn't be in zoos at all....
     
  12. CZJimmy

    CZJimmy Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to the lowland variety because I agree with what you're saying about the mountain gorillas.
     
  13. Toddy

    Toddy Well-Known Member

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    I think a few eastern lowland gorillas should be captured and imported to zoos. Then we would have a backup population in about 20-30 years, assuming their reproduktion behavior are the same as the western lowland gorillas. But they mountain gorilla population are too unstable to have individuals taken from the wild, and they probaly require an extra effort in enclosure desing.
     
  14. Yassa

    Yassa Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    I think capturing wild gorillas to keep them in zoos regardless the subspecies is cruel and inhumane. Thankfully it is forbidden by all laws - international and national - and it is extremely unlikely that the necessary permits and CITES papers would be issued.

    Gorillas - like other big apes - are just way too sensitive. Adult animals would suffer terribly in captive conditions and while young gorillas would be able to cope with captivity, removing them from their families at the necessary young age seems too cruel to me.

    Actually I think it would not be necessary to capture wild eastern lowland gorillas to build up a captive safety net population. There are a couple of poaching orphans cared for in Ruanda or Kongo (not exactly sure where) and I bet that more orphans could be confiscated if there were more funds to track down the illegal wildlife trade. These orphans could be integrated into a captive breeding program in western zoos. But I have no idea what the plans for these orphans are; I guess the native range countries want to keep them in their countries and they might even consider reintroduction.

    In general, I think capturing wild individuals to build up a captive population of whatever species is nearly always unnecessary. Confiscating orphaned and injured poaching victims where poaching occurs seems a much better way to me (certainly someone needs to donate funds to track down the illegal market down first). Or if no poaching occurs, monitor the wild population and over the time, it`s almost guaranteed that some animals will be found injured or orphaned (due to natural reasons) and can be used for a captive breeding program without capturing healthy wild individuals.
     
  15. Toddy

    Toddy Well-Known Member

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    I completely understand your views, and i also think that capturing wild animals are the absolute last resort.
     
  16. CZJimmy

    CZJimmy Well-Known Member

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    Yassa, I think you have the best idea for it. I had only thought of it after reading the moutain gorilla diaries on the bbc website, but i didn't think it all the way through.

    Just a side note: What is the situation in Antwerp concerning the gorillas? What is the exhibit like? How old are they? etc
     
  17. Toddy

    Toddy Well-Known Member

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    Their exhibit is a small indoor enclosure in one of the oldest Ape houses in the world. It has been renovated so it doesn't count as "cruel", but I still wouldent say it's fit for keeping gorillas of any kind. It's way to artifical. They keep the two eastern females with a western male.
     
  18. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

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    Let's take a look at the latest gorilla classification (according to Wilson, D. E., and Reeder, D. M. (eds): Mammal Species of the World ):
    -Western Gorilla:
    a) Western Lowland Gorilla (aka "The Zoo Gorilla") ~90.000-100.000 animals in the wild
    b) Cross River Gorilla ~250-300 (?)
    -Eastern Gorilla
    a) Eastern Lowland Gorilla (Antwerp Zoo) ~3.000-5.000 (?)
    b)Mountain Gorilla 380
    c) (Bwindi Gorilla ?) 320

    I don't think that an ex-situ population of another gorilla species is the best way to deal with the situation; and I have severe doubts that the local African nations, animal rights groups and consequently the Western societies would just sit there and watch impassively (remember Diana Fossey's fight against Cologne Zoo and the consequent media interest in that matter). I'm pretty sure that an additional ex-situ population for any of the gorilla populations mentioned above would not ultimately solve the current problems, but would rather generate more. Instead, already existing in-situ projects should be better supported-and some of the animals from already existing local gorilla orphanages could be sent to zoos both as embassadors of their species' situation, "genetic refreshment" of the zoo population and "relief" for the orphanages. All in all a point of view similar to that of Yassa. However, about the sick & injured brought into the zoo population: it depends on the individual specimen/illness. Would it be smart to bring in animals into Your zoo gene pool that haven't been "fit" enough at the natural selection-i.e. let the "unfit" contribute to Your already limited population?
     
    Last edited: 17 Dec 2007
  19. sebbe67

    sebbe67 Well-Known Member

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    Prolem with Eastern Lowland Gorilla is that there is probably only 2-3 (at most) subpopulations in the wild that it would be advicable to remove any animals from at all from, Kahuzi-Biega Park and Itombwe Forest support with out doubt the largest ones, most (if not all) of the subpopulations is found in areas which are considered as very unsafe to visit, and has been soo for several years, park guards is being killed on a regulary basis in Kahuzi-Biega and the mountains in still swarming with ex soldiers from Rwanda as well as other gerilla groups.

    I worked for the UN in DRC Congo 5 years ago and passed by Kahuzi-Biega on several occasions.

    The Itombwe forest is a "no go area" and has been off-limits to most people for the last 6 years or so, no chance a expedition will be allowed to go there as the situation looks like.

    The population would is still big enough to allow to remove individuals but aim not sure many people are keen to go to these areas as the situation looks like, a small number of orphans is held at Kahuzi-Biega but there is no plans to start breeding them as it looks. Breeding programme for reintrocuktion purpose is the only reason I see for capturing animals in the wild, would be better to put down more efforts in trying to protect the animals remaning in the wild rather than trying to build up a breeding population in captivity.
     
  20. Sun Wukong

    Sun Wukong Well-Known Member

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    Why should they?