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Bristol Zoo (Closed) Last Indian Tigers?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Pertinax, 28 Nov 2009.

  1. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to trace which was/were the last purebred Indian Tigers in the UK.

    The story so far; it appears several litters of orange tigers carrying the 'white' gene were produced between 1989-91 at Bristol Zoo (white female x normal male) and these represented the last descendants of the Bristol 'white tiger' line. Some of them were sent to Pakistan but three females went to Longleat. Providing their normal coloured father was also from pure Indian stock, these were possibly the last pure Indian tigers seen in the UK.

    Can anyone give any further insight into their history at Bristol or Longleat(or elsewhere- I believe one may have been transferred to Glasgow Zoo), or what later happened to them breeding wise?

    N.B. the 'messybeast' link where some of this comes from gives no further details except to record that they were sent to Longleat.
     
  2. hedigerfan

    hedigerfan Well-Known Member

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    The last pure Indian tiger in the UK was probably the old female white tiger that died in Dudley zoo around 1985. She was the last living desendent of the original white pair brought into Bristol from India. The normal coloured male that Bristol brought in to outbreed their white tigers in the mid-late 1970s was most definitely not a pure Indian tiger.
     
  3. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou for this information. Do you have any details on that male?
     
  4. hedigerfan

    hedigerfan Well-Known Member

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    I believe that a detailed zoo felid census that was published in an issue of RATEL in 1976 should have information on the origin of the male tiger as well as quite a few others from that time.
     
  5. Dartboy

    Dartboy Active Member

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    When were these 3 females sent to longleat because they had the same 2 females and a male for almost 20 years untill 2006 and then they got 3 new amur tigers from mulhouse zoo in france. One of the original 3 was white aswell.
     
  6. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    These three females were born in 1989, 90 & 91 (probably related but from different litters.) So they must have gone to Longleat sometime after that. Going back almost 20 years from 2006 takes you before then- maybe it wasn't quite that long?
     
  7. wibbs

    wibbs Well-Known Member

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    Not 100% sure but i dont think Bristol sent any white tigers to Longleat . Their last white tiger went to Dudley . Longleats white tigers came from a zoo in America. Please correct me if wrong
     
  8. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    That is correct. The three females I am talking about were orange/normal but carried the white gene from a parent.

    I think maybe Longleat sent one to Glasgow and bred the other(s) to the White male they sourced from America. However, it appears these females from Bristol weren't pure anyway(see above).
     
  9. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

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    Pertinax I have an old (colour) zoo guide book from Bristol zoo showing a pair of White cubs bred at bristol many years ago it could be the first of their white litters
     
  10. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    From memory the first successful litter of Champak & Chemili was four cubs(1.3, there had been at least one previous litter which died) and there are several postcards of them too.

    It does seem now(from above information) that the later litters sired by a normal coloured male at Bristol were not pure- so the last pure Indian would probably have been the last of the White tigers which died either at Bristol or Dudley.
     
  11. Nanook

    Nanook Well-Known Member

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    This is the information from the wild cat survey by Mark Stables in 1977 in relation to Bengal Tigers in zoos at that time , as follows;
    There were 37.45 in 23 collections.
    Belfast Zoo - 3.3 (2.1 born Dec 76)
    Bristol Zoo - 4.4 (2.1 born 16/5/76 - mother "Sumati", "Akbar 2","Jehen" and "Chandra". 1.0 born to "Nirmala" , "Shiva" hand-reared. All eight animals were White.1.0 born New Delhi - "Roop" arrived October 1972, 0.1 born Rewa march 1962 "Chemeli" arrived June 63, 0.1 "Nirmala" born 6.5.70 and 0.1 "Sumati" born 21.5.68.
    Blackpool - 2.2 (1.0 born Twycross, 0.1 born Colchester and 1.1 born Blackpool 1975. )
    Broxbourne? no details.
    Chessington - 1.2 no details but I believe two were Guatama and Tanith?
    Chester - 3.4 (1.1 born Edinburgh arrived 23.4.69, 1.0 born Blackpool arrived 7.8.75 , 0.1 born Broxbourne arrived 27.5.76. no other details.
    Colchester - 1.1 no details.
    Dudley - 2.2 no details.
    Edinburgh - 0.1 born edinburgh 4.4.72.
    Glasgow - 1.1 both born Twycross 1975.
    Howletts - 6.9 (2.5 born Howletts) no more details.
    Kessingland - 1.2 no details.
    London - 1.0 no details.
    Longleat - 3.3 no details!
    Manchester - 2.2 no details.
    Paignton - 1.1 (1.0 born Plymouth early 1973 , 0.1 born Twycross 23.4.73)
    Port Lympne - 1.2 (0.1 Port Lympne hand-reared) no other details.
    Plymouth - 1.2 no details.
    Scotlands African Safari Park - 1.1 both born at Longleat.
    Southam Zoo - 0.1 no details.
    Thorney - 2.2 no details.
    Twycross - 1.2 (1.0 born Howletts 1967 "Sultan" , 0.1 born Edinburgh "Begum" arrived 1972, 0.1 born Twycross).

    Hope this is some help , or it might just complicate things!?
     
  12. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    A very interesting list.

    Unfortunately at that time there was no way of proving how many of these Tigers were purebed. It was later discovered that most of those at Howletts were not, while one bred at Twycross which was sent to India for 'rewilding' was also later proven to have Siberian blood. So the same may be true of many others on this list.

    The only undoubtedly pure ones on this list were the Bristol 'Whites' which, by virtue of the selective colour breeding for 'white' only had, through the lack of any outcrossing, also maintained their racial purity.

    Maybe others can shed more light on this?
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2009
  13. Nanook

    Nanook Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely , the whole survey is very interesting , showing which collections were keeping which species , but with alot of additional details including private collectors who were involved in one way or another, a snapshot in time , its only frustrating that the crucial details of certain animals are not there!
     
  14. hedigerfan

    hedigerfan Well-Known Member

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    What is to be remembered is that the Indo-chinese tiger was not described until 1967-8, and then later was further subdivided with the description of the distinct Malayan subspecies in the early 21st century. Prior to this, many tigers that were "accurately" described as being of the subspecies tigris were in fact corbetti and later jacksoni. Many normal coloured tigers that came into the UK in the 1950s and 1960s actually originated from the Malayan peninsula, e.g. the prolific Edinburgh pair Rajah and Ranee whose offspring appear in the 1977 survey. This would further reduce the likelihood of any non-Bristol origin tigers being Indian tigers.
     
  15. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    True enough. I'm left with the feeling the Bristol White Tigers were the last in the UK that can be proven to be of pure Indian descent- it doesn't mean that they really were- though its likely.
     
  16. Bele

    Bele Well-Known Member

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    I thought that the Sandown Isle of Wight Zoo claimed to have a pure Indian tiger amongst its many tigers . I checked the web-site today but could not find this . However I believe several of their older tigers have died in the last year or so .
     
  17. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't necessarily believe such a claim though I wouldn't discount it totally either. However I feel its unlikely to have been true.
     
  18. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Last purebred Indian Tigers in UK ?

    I have resurrected this older thread in the hope Amur can shed some light on this from the studbook.

    I think the last purebreds were either Bristol-bred white tigers- possibly Akbar 2nd - or descendants of theirs. Dates, names or locations of any of the last/ most recent purebred Indian tigers in the UK would be of interest though.
     
  19. Amur

    Amur Active Member

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    Hi

    Im back in work on Monday....i will fetch the tiger stud book home for a week or two and post my findings here.
    A family line in the "International tiger stud book" always starts with a "wild-caught tiger" which is registered, and if the wild-caught tiger has cubs it then becomes a "Founder" and the Founders cubs will also be registered, and the cubs offspring will also be registered and so on.
    Only wild-caught tigers can become "Founders".
    Not all wild-caught tigers had cubs, see below for Amurs and Bengals regarding "wild-caught" and "Founders" registered in the stud book.

    Amur "wild-caught" = 142 (my other post said 139 but ive now checked my notes)
    Amur "Founders" = 111 (it was 112 but Roman now removed)
    Amurs that have been registered = 5131
    Living population of captive (about 500) Amur tigers are all descended from those 111 Founders.

    Bengal "wild-caught" = 108
    Bengal "Founders" = 29
    Bengals that have been registered = 1019
    Living population of captive (about 200) Bengal tigers are only descended from 29 Founders.

    If a tiger is not a stud book tiger...we cannot say its pure unless a DNA test is done, or we can prove its wild-caught with known catching area.
    We can say stud book tigers are pure because....all offspring registered have to be from parents that are already registered in the stud book, and the family line goes all the way back without interruption up to the wild-caught Founder.
     
    best wishes
     
    Last edited: 23 Jan 2010
  20. Amur

    Amur Active Member

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    Regarding stud book Bengals in UK zoos.
    Only Bristol zoo held any "stud book Bengals" in the past (ive listed below each one held at Bristol)
    For other UK zoos that claimed to have had them.....a DNA test would be needed before they can say "pure Bengals"
    Yes, Bristol`s Bengals was "pure" because they are stud book tigers, but highly inbred.... their first two was brother and sister but they bred them.

    Stud number 32
    name Champak
    sex male
    Father stud number 1
    Mother stud number 7
    born at REWA on 24 march 1962
    Transfer to Bristol 22 June 1963
    death 22 Aug 1970

    Stud number 34
    name Chameli
    sex female
    Father stud number 1
    Mother stud number 7
    born at REWA on 24 march 1962
    Transfer to Bristol 22 June 1963
    death 23 Aug 1982

    Stud number 70
    name ----
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 11 May 1967
    death May 1967

    Stud number 71
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 11 May 1967
    death May 1967

    Stud number 72
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 11 May 1967
    death May 1967

    Stud number 73
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 11 May 1967
    death May 1967

    Stud number 91
    name Akbar
    sex male
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 21 May 1968
    death 7 Jan 1973

    Stud number 92
    name Sumati
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 21 May 1968
    death 21 Jan 1986

    Stud number 93
    name Sarala
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 21 May 1968
    death 23 oct 1971


    Stud number 94
    name Sushita
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 21 May 1968
    death 14 sep 1972

    Stud number 104
    name Roop
    sex male
    Father stud number 16
    Mother stud number 7
    born Delhi 7 June 1969
    Transfer Bristol 27 oct 1972
    death 5 march 1984

    Stud number 118
    name ----
    sex male
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 6 May 1970
    death 8 may 1970

    Stud number 119
    name Nirmala
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 6 May 1970
    death 24 aug 1978

    Stud number 120
    name Seeta
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 6 May 1970
    Transfer Delhi 19 oct 1972
    death 28 feb 1973


    Stud number 121
    name Shubra
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 6 May 1970
    death 7 sep 1977

    Stud number 122
    name Nandini
    sex female
    Father stud number 32
    Mother stud number 34
    born Bristol 6 May 1970
    death 31 may 1971

    Stud number 137
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 91
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 17 june 1972
    death 17 june 1972

    Stud number 138
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 91
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 17 june 1972
    death 17 june 1972

    Stud number 139
    name ----
    sex ?
    Father stud number 91
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 17 june 1972
    death 19 june 1972

    Stud number 141
    name ----
    sex male
    Father stud number 91
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 18 feb 1973
    death 18 feb 1973

    Stud number 142
    name Salim
    sex male
    Father stud number 91
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 18 feb 1973
    death 31 dec 1975

    Stud number 160
    name ----
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 28 may 1975
    death 30 may 1975

    Stud number 161
    name ----
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 28 may 1975
    death 28 may 1975

    Stud number 162
    name ----
    sex female
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 28 may 1975
    death 4 june 1975

    Stud number 166
    name Akbar II
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 16 may 1976
    Transfer Dudley 6 jul 1978
    Transfer Bristol 2 sep 1982
    death 7 apr 1986

    Stud number 167
    name Jehan
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 16 may 1976
    death 11 may 1978

    Stud number 168
    name
    sex female
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 16 may 1976
    death 16 may 1976

    Stud number 169
    name Chandra
    sex female
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 92
    born Bristol 16 may 1976
    death 16 apr 1978

    Stud number 177
    name Shiva
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 119
    born Bristol 12 june 1976
    Transfer Dudley 6 july 1978
    death 3 nov 1978

    Stud number 178
    name---
    sex male
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 119
    born Bristol 12 june 1976
    death 23 june 1976

    Stud number 188
    name Sita
    sex female
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 119
    born Bristol 7 jul 1977
    death 26 nov 1982

    Stud number 189
    name Nanda
    sex female
    Father stud number 104
    Mother stud number 119
    born Bristol 7 jul 1977
    Transfer Dudley 2 sep 1982
    death 5 nov 1984