Lowland gorillas in Europe 2008

I guess this is the first time either of the Drill/Mandrill species has been trialled with Gorillas. Previously successful(and not so successful) mixings have been with Guenons, Colobus or Mangabeys. I too wonder if it will work okay?

 

A female baby would be welcome here as the other two females both have male infants.

 

The diana monkeys and the guerezas are already in Frankfurt. Their enclosures in the old monkey house will most likely given to the other monkey species there (baboons, yellow-breasted capuchin monkeys, gibbons) because the space is very limited there.

 

Does Frankfurt still have the two moated rocky islands for Monkeys? If so, what's kept on them nowadays?

 

Hi Yassa,

I was slightly referring also to the erstwhile Dr. Schmidt masterplan (to my mind a well respected zoo director and one who was dragged through the mud by his Bern Zoo counterpart and to the Frankfurt Municipality who were only too keen to jump on the band-wagon to deflect their responsibility for years of total funding neglect on their part of the local zoos' needs and enlargement project for the out zoo)!

I seem to remember he had suggested and drawn up a plan for a total refurbishment into open air Lesser Primate House?

Can you check for us again ... and what are the plans in the new era?

 

It seems that the concept of mixed exhibits for gorillas. Has allot more to do with the personalities of the animals involved rather than saying you can just have colobus monkeys and gorillas together.

Will be very interested to hear how the Drills go. I have not seen or heard of them exhibited with gorillas in the past.

At Howletts l thought they had a fantastic colobus exhibit. So much space and first rate climbing facilities. In the exhibit nesr the front gate. This exhibit was shared with baboons l think. Seemed a shame the 2 days l was there last the colobus seemed to prefer there smaller enclosure although they had acess to the largere area.

Does anybody know more about the fencing that they use in such exhibits?

Stuart

 

Is it time to follow Atlanta's experiance.Young males as soon as feasable are transfered to be with other males who are not going to be used for further breeding. As Atlanta has found this produces the best results for longterm bachealor groups.

Rather than the present way of having to constantly re jig bachealor groups.

 

Don't forget 'Bachelor groups' of gorilla males are really an artificial product of captivity- non-breeding males in the wild tend to avoid each other and travel about alone, not club together.

As its been found in captivity they'll tolerate each other this has become a recognised way of keeping 'spare' males. I think it largely depends on individual temperament how well and how long they'll live together though. Its true that young males that grew up together don't need to be introduced and will usually live harmoniously(?) together at maturity- but not always. Port Lympne have had problems with fighting and one (maybe two) of their silverback males are permanently separated nowadays. I always get the impression that within their groups, the Port Lympne silverbacks aren't very social with each other.

Paignton(UK) has a group of one adult male and several younger males of different ages. This is more a 'working group' with animals joining and then leaving as they mature to go to breeding groups, and then replaced by younger animals to keep the number at 5/6(there are currently 4). I would regard this as an ideal situation and it seems to work very well, at least with this particular group. Several males have already matured within this group and then left to join breeding groups.

Another thing to remember is the longer a young male can stay in a normal social group, the better socialised he'll be as an adult and a percentage of males that enter batchelor groups are still required for breeding later so this is important too.

 

Hi Pertnax, I would imagine given that gorillas high scence of smell. That the number of Silverbacks producing there own odour within maybe a mile of eachother. Could be a reason. I cant think of anywhere else that has so many silverbacks.

Yes definatley if there is a possibility that a male was to be used for future breeding. It is best to have it as socialy adept an animal that can be. I know that many males born now are just not going to be used for breeding. So given that experiance todate suggest that the sooner they are placed together the better the chance for long term stability.

I have seen the work Atlanta is doing with the bachealor groups. The gorillas that were placed together at a young age did seem very settled. Although l am also very aware this is very new territory and there is still allot to be learnt.

I just cant think of another option. As seeing Rigo isolated for 16 years [i think] it just did not seem that a silverback should be alone indefinatley. Although l am aware that the keepers at Melbourne assured me he was okay and they were doing everthing they could.

Towards the end of his isolation his enclosure for several years, was surronded by bamboo for a couple of reasons. One of them was that he was getting very good at releasing his anger i think or maybe for his own entertainment. At throwing his feaces at the public. The other was that unlike many gorillas he was not enjoying the enrichment that the public provide.

The issue of the oversupply of males is very close to my heart. Also of course Rigo is just such a beutifull specime and according to his keepers a real pleasure to work with.

All the best

stuart

 

Morning Pertinax,
just out of bed and the first thing l do is look for your reply! Loving this forum.

So are there plans to limit the amount of males being born. Surely this can only be done by AI. We all know l am sure. That our Rigo's sperm was the first succesfull case of this. Producing the equally stuning Rigo now at jersey.

Did you know that they introduced a black rabbit to his mother before the birth. The only time l have heard of this. Innovative enrichment and of course the primary reason a education device.

Yes thankyou l did fine the Rigo thread, last night.

Tell me Pertinax how diverse in your opinion is the gene pool of captive gorillas. Do you think that we are going to run into problems in the forceable future? What is the number of males and females in captivity at the momment? I often use this amazing link Gorillas Galore - Captive Gorilla Lists - Stud Book It just does not give a total breakdown.

I know of Oliver at Gorilla Haven who is deaf. It seems that for this reason he is not going to be put with Females. He is also a beutifull animal in nature as well as apearance, where they are doing everthing they can for him. Yet he is so desperatley needs to be runing his own troop by now. Hate to think what would have happened to him had it not been for the Dewar's.

You have a good day

Stuart

 

'Teaching' females motherhood with dolls or small animals was first used at San Diego- they got the expectant mother to obey simple commands in exchange for treats- e.g. pick up the baby, turn the baby over, and to hold a dummy doll properly. She turned out a good mother to her real baby. Apenheul did a similar thing before their first birth, using short contact sessions with a baby spider monkey. Again it was successful though who knows if the mother gorilla may have been a good mother anyway(?). In Yuska's case it evidently didn't work. Did she try to look after Mzuri?

I think the gene pool in captivity is still large enough, but more movement of animals between the American and European populations is needed now. Some overrepresented lines in Europe are now in danger of dominating the breeding and there have been relatively few exchanges between the large populations now built up in both America & Europe. I can't give you a total population figure- I don't know it. I also use 'Gorillas Galore' but beware there are( and not surprising really) a few innacuracies in the data.

Oliver at 'Gorilla Haven' is another sad case- its obvious he needs some Gorilla company. I imagine they will never breed from him because he's deaf. The best solution perhaps might be a couple or more younger males for company?

Do you know why Gorilla Haven have still only two males? I'm sure there must be other surplus males in North American zoos. Even if GH. have problems with building work now, presumably there is enough housing completed e.g. Oliver's own villa, to take a few more?

 

Hi pertinax, Yes mazuri was hanrdreared. I do remmber though. He was in close proximity with him a great deal of the time. He from a early age placed with her for periods of time. This progressing very quickly that he was part of the group full time i think by the age of 2-3. I know melbourne did everything humanly possible. To make sure he was not imprinted with humans more than neccesay. It obviously worked spectacually. Given how he behaves now.

I have herd and read of many ways of educating a expectant mother. I just always thought it was very interesting to use a fluffy black rabbit. Can you imagine how the rabbit felt??? Also the first person to come up with idea at Melbourne. MMM lets get a rabbitt for Yuska!!!!

 

...inaccurancies in Gorillas Galore data...

I've checked current Prague troop (2.4, 4 adults). Only thing I found was that sire of Kamba's stillbirth was definitely Richard, not Tadao (it was a male but it doesn't matter much). Not sure about owners of particular individuals I guess it's right.

On behaviour - in Prague troop Kamba looks after both youngsters even more than their real mother Kijivu. Not that Kijivu can't do it, she just hasn't minded her help and now au-paring Kamba seems to adopt both Moja and Tatu a bit. Sadly, this behaviour lessen her chance to have her own offspring while the door is closing for her.

 

No it didn't!!! I am not saying he is humanised but something is not right as Mzuri(now called Ya Kwanza) has been surprisingly UNsuccessful as a breeding male at Jersey. They have four females(including one from Melbourne) but he still only breeds with one and ignores the others totally. That isn't normal behaviour. He has only one offspring (the other died recently)- a nearly adult male called 'Mapema' who was mother-reared in the Jersey group and is now with females in Duisburg Zoo, Germany. Mapema is the most likely to carry Rigo's genes into the next generation.

 

innacurracies in 'Gorillas Galore'

This is actually a very good document to get data from- but I've noticed particularly some errors concerning whether an animal is wildcaught or captive bred, and a few dates or places of death aren't correct either.

 

I think a live rabbit was probably a better choice than a dummy ande they got the colour right too. I presume they had no suitable monkey baby they could use.

Its interesting that I don't think Howletts have ever(?) tried to reintroduce any rejected babies back to their mothers or back into their natal groups at an early age. They form new groups with them instead. Nowadays these babies are sent back to Africa.

 

Prague Gorillas.

Does Kamba look after the babies because she is more dominant? Do you know if she(Kamba) is still having oestrus periods and being mated?- hopefully she could still have a baby successfully herself- especially as she shows this strong maternal interest.

 

No, Shinda is the dominant one. Kijivu and Kamba are quite equal. I'm not about current situation but I'll ask. I think I read somewhere that Kamba was even nursing (because of the stillburth not so long ago) and that this comlicated any chances of becoming pregnant significantly because it influenced her hormones. They were sceptical but of course there is always hope. She didn't have period at least until February but some mating occured (Richard is mating with all 3 females). Kamba is experienced and calm individual, stabilize the troop and make others feel better.

On the other hand Shinda's situation looks more optimistic. The infamous contraceptive body which couldn't be removed obviously stopped functioning, she is mating, has periods, so if there is no unknown problem it should be a matter of time (she is a bit tougher than her sister but there is no reason to think she would be worse mother than Kijivu is).
I'll update this as soons as I find out more. Prague gorillas are very well marketed (since the reality show project), are the msot popular specie of Prague zoo, have their "Gorilla clan" sort of fanclub etc., so if you care The Revealed (?eský rozhlas) (includes live cameras).

 

Many thanks for this update on Prague's gorilla group. It is good news indeed that Shinda may now be able to breed. Also I do hope that 'Kamba' can get pregnant again and have a successful birth- that would be really great news for this older w/c female with no representation. 'Richard' I saw several times at different stages in his growth from young male to silverback, in the all male group in Paignton. I have nice photos of him from Prague Zoo too.