I'd like to go back to the education aspect of zoos. Many people benefit greatly from one-on-one time spent with an educator. Being able to ask a question or be not just part of the mass of students can make a big difference. The same is true in a zoo setting. Being able to talk to a keeper, be told something about an animal by a person who interacts daily with said animal is certainly educational. It doesn't cost money, doesn't take much time, and provides a great opportunity to reach out and teach. "Meeting" Emi at the Cincinnati Zoo this summer taught my grandchildren and I more than any documentary on TV. As a studbook keeper I can tell you that zoo breeding of many species is tightly controlled.
Then those animals known to produce white, should be excluded from the breeding program, like responsible Boxer breeders, would exclude any white, or dog/bitch known to produce white, from their breeding program. I absolutely would support the stopping of inbreeding of pedigree dogs yes. I read it on here last night somewhere, Ill see if I can find it. Well I thought Id give them the benefit of the doubt and take up a couple of suggestions of folk on here, I hope I will be rewarded with improvements I will be pleased to report about.
I totally agree, but in my experience the keepers have been "vague" to say the least. Id love to see keepers on hand near all exhibits to answer questions for people, that would be great! Im sure breeding is tightly controlled in many Zoo's, perhaps in future it could be the same policy for ALL species and ALL Zoos.
Why? Sorry but it's a natural variant, if two PURE bred Bengal tigers had a white offspring then I would not have any problem if the offspring’s genes where used further in a managed species.
But then they would not get anything done, better informed educator's is what I prefer to see, Chester have some great presenter’s that generally know the in and outs of the collection.
Well thats a good point really, at least if there is "somebody" around to at least address concerns would be good.
It breeds problems, and these animals will never have a chance even in many generations to come of a life of freedom will they? White Tigers are not natural, they breed them for public entertainment only. Re: white Boxers, many are deaf, have serious skin problems are some are photosensitive, the light sensitivity is also noticeable in the white male Lion at West Mids.
White Tigers ARE natural. They naturally occur in wild populations of Bengals, although none have been seen in the wild for many years (possibly a result of severely depleted numbers). White Lions and White wallabies are also known to occur in wild populations. Hix
Are you not getting yourself confused with Albino animals here? I am confused, still do not understand why you think “white” tigers are not natural, they certainly are and can appear in the wild but due to it being a recessive gene it’s very unlikely. How do you think white tiger’s came about in captivity? Maybe you need to read up on these subject area’s, as am confused as to what your point is here.
They occur but wouldnt survive, please show me where NATURAL WILD populations of white Tigers are surviving please.
Nope not getting confused at all, having studied white AND albinoism in canines I know the difference thanks. Here is a few problems known to affect white Tigers that do not normally occur in the correct coloured ones. Strabismus, Other genetic problems include shortened tendons of the forelegs, clubbed feet, central retinal degeneration, abnormal kidneys, arched or crooked backbone and twisted neck. Found easily on the net. from the same place: Some opponents state that white tiger breeding only inflates the stud book entries for zoos and provides a popular exhibit which helps increase attendance and revenue. I agree totally with this statement, and THAT is my point! Photo sensitivity doesnt only occur in albino animals, a white tiger cant be albino if it has markings on it, thats pigment, there have been cases of white albino Lions though. Having little or no pigment around the eye, having blue eyes, will often result in light sensitivity in those animals.
Just because they do not survive in the wild doesn't mean they havn't or could be capable in the future. All the problem you have listed are not common in normal "white tigers", please get your fact right, these problem have occured due to irresponsible breeding. However if a pure white tiger was born in captivity there would little of these problems as there are caused by inbreeding not because they are white in colour. (Okay that is the reason they were inbred but it's not because they are white they suffer from different problems to other "normal" coloured tigers). At the moment the captive population of bengal tigers are hybrids, however if these were pure bred then I would not have problem as its keeping genetic diversity in the population. Do you have a copy of the bengal tiger studbook? or have detailed inside information regarding the population of bengal tigers, as all responsible collections know these animals are hybrid animals and there at not wanting to keep or breed these animals and is also why you can see an influx of sumatran tigers in responsible zoo's.
Here we go again, "might" or "could" is not relevant Taun, its never gonna happen. These problems do not occur in orange Tiger though do they, there are many that say these are inbred in some places, why are these "colour connected" issues not surfacing in them? Are they? So you can categorically state that the entire white tiger poulation are all hybrid? Some statement can you back that up? {QUOTE]Do you have a copy of the bengal tiger studbook? or have detailed inside information regarding the population of bengal tigers, as all responsible collections know these animals are hybrid animals and there at not wanting to keep or breed these animals and is also why you can see an influx of sumatran tigers in responsible zoo's.[/QUOTE] No I dont, do you? Can you tell me where I may get one from please, Id be interested to read it. I dont have detailed "inside" information either but you seem to, please share it, with to better understand why you support the breeding of animals for public entertainment alone, and that will never ever repopulate the wild in any way, shape or form. What about white Lions, are they hybrid too? Dont think so I think we should agree to disagree as I doubt we will see eye to eye on the "white" thing. I MUST get back to writing pedigrees now!!!
Hmm...seems you have not read up on this subject as the white tiger population is descended from a male white tiger caught in the wild! I'd like to see proof to your claims? If we bred Father and daughter and god know what after that in the Sumatran population then we would have the same problems in 20 years time. These have been managed properly. Again you say you have read up on this matter but you obviously haven’t the white Bengal tigers were cross-bred with Amur tigers to create bigger specimens, but am sure you have read all about this in your extensive coverage of the subject you claim to have. I agree captive carnivores will be very unlikely to reintroduced. However I think you miss my point. IF these animals were from a pure bred Bengal tigers and were not inbred then I don't have a problem with them being used in the breeding programs. However you seem to think this is not a variant that can occur? What is your problem with the colour white? Do you think all American black bears that are not black (as they come in a few VARIANTS) should not be breed from? No, you are quite right here they are recognised as a distinct sub-species, however the inbreeding to keep ONLY white specimens is a problem, as there is a "Normal" variant as well however zoo's that keep them just want the "white" animals. I will think you find that we do agree but you have some how got your wires crossed, white tigers as they stand in captive population should not be bred from, simple. All specimens should either be neutered or placed in non-breeding situation. I think you will find that I also don't want these "white" tigers to be bred from as there are a waste of space in our zoo's. However you seem to be misguided in your knowledge and it comes across that you do not realise that white colouration is a variant not some weird sub-species on there own or a mutant animal. And am going to agree to disagree also.
Yes Im aware of that, but they have never survived for whatever reason, if it was a naturally occurring colour that was considered "normal" then it stands to reason there would be many of them in the wild. Well if you think about it, we can only go one what we see, if it was born deformed, who would know? Yes I have read about crossbreeding, but have also read a lot about inbreeding, hence the health issues. No, I know its a variant, just not a desirable one. If Zoo's claim conservation, they should only breed from "normal" animals that would repopulate the species. After all you keep saying "could" and others say "might" they dont stand a chance in the wild if they are white. That ought to be the ultimate aim, right? Or am I correct that money drives the white breeding program? I dont have a problem with White, I have a problem breeding animals in captivity that will never serve the species as a whole, but will only bring people through the gates, this to me , is exploitation on a HUGE scale. I also an very aware of the white colouring causing health issues specific to them. Not unless those colours can have health implications no, or cause them problems that would prevent them living normally in the wild, I think its perfectly fine. Yep, we agree here. Yes thats pretty much it for me Im afraid, as I dont think they can ever improve their species in any way. If at some point there was simply no other option at all, of course it would have to be a consideration. Im not misguided Taun, I dont think they should be bred, period, likewise white wallabies etc... Its just I cant see a "future" in such colours, to me they are bred for the wrong reasons. We agree here also. Thanks for taking part.
I'm sorry, I was simply referring to the conservation status of polar bears, and am not making any comment over any breeding program, if one exists. You seemed to be taking the strategy of global warming deniers, who see any slight improvement as signs that all is well. Howletts, by far. It is simple, and I agree. However nothing is that simple, and there is a lot of work behind running a proper breeding program. But I have a couple of problems with your attitude, which is extremely simplistic. Firstly you cast a wide net, without apparent thought. You claim "wallabies" shouldn't be kept, without recognising that "wallabies" encompasses a large Family of animals, including some of the most endangered species on earth. Secondly why shouldn't zoos in Britain exhibit a common species of wallaby, if that is all that is available to them. Surely it is important for zoo visitors to gain some understanding of macropods and marsupials in general? But not every zoo can be a Jersey, and there are other ways of furthering conservation. For instance I visited Drusillas(sp?) ten years ago. This is a small zoo that has no pretensions, aiming their marketing squarely at the child market. No great programs for endangered species here. But as I walked around there was a definite effort to educate me about conservation. Further there were several donation collection points for various conservation programs around the world. That zoo was doing a lot for conservation, without claiming any involvement in conservation breeding. Once again you are wrong. Subordinate males frequently breed in social groups, in almost all species. In fact canines are particularly adapted to achieve this, with litters able to have multiple fathers. But I am sorry you did not receive a reply. Maybe they are avoiding it. Or maybe they are tired of trying to reply to people with an agenda to pursue, who are unwilling to take reasonable answers at face value. Again you display your ignorance with an insult. GENETIC faults and diseases appear so often in pedigree dogs because the genetic pool from which they are bred is so limited. And the pool is constantly reduced by an insistence that the next generation only be bred from a small pool of "Champions" selected on a very limited set of artificial criteria. As for your wolf, it is entirely up to the managers of that captive group as to which animal breeds and which doesn't. I would hope if they are breeding from that wolf, there is a very good reason. Of course nobody would release an animal like that. But if it's progeny were released, any wild offspring that did express that fault would quickly die. That is natural selection at work. As for my expertise with wolves, I have been managing a group of dingos for the last 10 years. My opinion of white tigers and white wallabies is much the same as my opinion of white rabbits and white poodles. They have no place in the modern zoo. White tigers in western zoos in particular are highly inbred, and also are often hybrids between different subspecies. Having said that I note a recent thread on a professional zoo list discussing this issue, in which it was claimed that white Bengal tigers are far more common in the wild in India that previously thought (much as black leopards are very common in South-east Asia) and that it is legitimate to include them in breeding programs in Indian zoos. I don't know enough about it to comment, but it does demonstrate the importance of keeping an open mind on these issues. Michael
Did you actually read my post? I said none have been seen in the wild for some years - probably because tiger populations as a whole are severaly depleted across their range. The fact remains - white tiger adults have been captured from the wild in the past. Hix
