Yeah, nothing annoys me more then when a zoo like the one at Dubbo spends 2.5 million dollars to create a breeding facility for a rare animal like the greater one horned rhino. How dare they.
Here here Boof I do agree how DARE WPZ try and help save an Endangered species like the Indian rhino, they also must know that most people in oz dont want to see these remarkable animals and join the world effort in trying to save this species, lets stick to the regional plan and just turn our backs on on such Endangerd animals.
Sometimes, discussing these things is like pushing s#$@ up hill. It's a pointless excercise. So let's just import a single pair of every endangered species there is, no matter how much it costs, or what the impact is to other well thought-out programs, shall we? After all, we have an infiniate amount of resources in the way of money and people to support these initiatives. And you wonder why some zoos don't have the resources to manage what they have effectively, or to build wonderful new exhibits? But heaven knows, they may breed a single animal of one of those endanagered species, so it will all be worth it.
I was trying to make the point, perhaps too subtly (or too sarcastically), that we can't import and effectively manage all endangered species, just because they are endangered, and in my opinion, two animals in a region as remote as ours, doesn't do much good. Would you follow the same logic if Australia Zoo imports 2 Sumatran rhino, and Adelaide Zoo imports 2 Bengal tigers, and Perth Zoo imports 2 Bonobos, etc. etc.? When do we decide that it might be a more sensible idea to work together to manage a viable population effectively?
I got your point Zoopro, but my point was this is only the two species here white lions & Indian rhinos. Of coarse we know we have to draw the line somewhere with the number of species that our zoos keep and I for one am all for a regional collection plan, I just think our scope should be a little wider thats all, just one other point is long gone are the days of shipping in animals from all over the world by ship, as everyone is aware many animals are flown in from the other side of the world within 24 hours this makes it much easier for zoos world wide to work togeather in there breeding programs.
not when your quarrentine laws are so tight mark! its not cheap to import animals by air and many specimens take years for the co-ordinator to source. and lets be honest - which species would you guys phase out? i don't think there is a single phase-out species mentioned on this forum that doesn't achieve a chorus of "why can't we keep them?" from almost everyone (i know i'm guilty of this too..). whats particuarly stupid in the mogo decision is its not even a species we don't manage - but its a group that are effectively shut-out from the breeding program because all the other zoos don't wish to purposely breed muatations. personally, like everyone else, i adore indian rhino and i think they are a good choice for the region for many reasons. i have even argued that since dubbo already makes a huge contribution to the priority program for white rhino, then should they chose another species (or two as it may be) then that is fair enough. however on the otherhand zoopro makes a very good point. whats better, to have a few well-coordinated regional programs or spread yourself thinly over numerous programs? we all know the answer to that.
i also like indian rhinos i also love indian rhinos, but like zoo pro said, having a pair of them in australian zoos isnt going to save them. and its just dumb to think otherwise. this isnt to take away from the fact that they are endangered, or spectacular, or have a good exhibit at WPZ. it doesnt change the fact that WPZ is the only place to see these spectacular beasts in the country. but the Indian Rhino program has recquired a disproportionate ammount of resources which may compromise the viabilty of the TAG as a whole. therefore, I think that the importation of the Indian Rhino might just have been a little before its time. if the region, collectively, got black rhinos and white rhinos sorted out than it would be time for Indian Rhinos. not now, when were already facing the Black Rhino as being unsustainable. would other people on this forum advocate increasing lemur species, given that Ruffed Lemurs are already in trouble from lack of breeding. why dont we import Mountain Tapirs, just because they are endangered? and who cares about the Malayans??? as much as we talk about sustainabilty and viabilty of our own regional collections, in my mind our zoos should not be compromising the management of international programs by 'borrowing' these animals to start programs here, when in America and Europe, Indian Rhino populations are still not out of the woods. certainly, you cannot tell me (maybe in Japan) that Kua couldnt have been sourced a more suitable mate in America or Europe? the most effective place for Kua would be in a zoo in either America or Europe. and finally, we might have a pair of Indian Rhinos. so what? even if they do breed, we either send the offspring back OS or import more to create unrelated pairs. either way, its a slow way to build up numbers, and its certainly taking the long way aorund to establishing a viable population of this species. in the future, lets just hope that... WPZ aims to increase its holding capacity at least 2-3 other regional zoos indicate holding potential that the SSP and EEP both continue to breed surplus to recquirements, meaning our region might actually get some more rhinos and that WPZ succesfully breeds this species at the end of the day, managing any species in an international program and not regionally seems very wasteful of money
i also think Taronga should consider phasing out African Lions and Sumatran Tigers for white lions and tigers. i cant see a problem with that...
Glyn, before you say its so dumb to hold only A PAIR of Indian rhinos in this country why dont you bother to read Taronga zoos master plan were is says they want to hold TWO pairs in a few years and there is another zoo in Australia that also is interested in having them, so we could have at least three pairs here, so how about doing a little reserch first before you come out with kind of statement. maybe the only dumb thing here is that some people dont get their facts right.
that other zoo would be australia zoo. hopefully they have given up on the rediculous idea of sumatran rhinos by now...
i am fully aware of the facts i know full well of the intentions of ZPB of NSW to hold 2 breeding pairs of Indian Rhinos. But given genetic theory, low holding capacity and the fact that ARAZPA regards a zoo program in the Australasian region as viable when an animal can be managed with a population +20 individuals, well, i think its dumb!!!
im content to just sit and watch if this one works out, id like to see indian rhinos in more zoos, but in the last decade, no new large mammal species introduced to Australia has been established as a viable species, ie, bongo, malayan tapir. the real success seems to come with species held within Australia in good numbers to start with. and whilst i obviously dont reckon we could start a program with 20 of these animals, building up to this number (20) from a small founder population of less than 6 animals (which is a generous estimation given WPZ only intends to have 2 pairs) will only compound issues of inbreeding. this species will need a very high level of regional involvement, cooperation and money poured into it if its to persist, or, as people are suggesting, move to a mor secure status. and another point, before any other zoos get involved, they will have to find the several million dollars to finance construction of an exhibit for a new species. the logical thing would be for most zoos to upgrade exhibits for animals they already have.
Glyn, The other zoo that is interested in obtaining them has heaps of money for such projects, I would not be surprised if the got more than one pair.
the best way for indian rhinos to be displayed is like whites, large savannah exhibits, western plains should have, and oz zoo might, as it said that its new land is for savannahs of africa, asia and north america!
well, now those two particular species have good reasons why they have not become established - bongo becuse of importation changes that came into effect shortly after the initial import and malayan tapir because of health problems that put the program on hold. still, i get your point, but its by no means restricted to just large mammals. as i often say virtually everything in our zoos are "unviable" long term without big imports. what i find happens is that a small group tend to be imported, bred and then distributed amogst the other zoos. these reciveing zoos then tend to aquire a single unrelated individual from OS to breed back with the australian-bred stock. what this means is that eventually (depending on the species) most of the population is related to one another and with restrictions on how many animals can be held, breeding the population is halted. they join a long list of species requiring fresh blood imported and by the time a zoo gets around to it the population here is mostly aged, often a little inbred and can no longer reproduce anyway. the "breeding program" then effectively starts up again from scratch with a "fresh pair" and 20 years of keeping the species hasn't really got us very far (if the aim is to increase the species numbers). then we start all over again. of course there are exceptions to this (white rhino, sumatran tigers, orangutans to name just a few..) and valid reasons why this happens (even if you chose to discount lack of money as a valid), but in my view it tends to largely come back to that resurfacing issue of not enough space. what i see happening in zoos at the moment is for many species, we are in this process of starting over and the question seems to be which species we choose to do that for. sometimes i fear that some of the same mistakes are being made again. its okay to bring in a single pair and breed them (i suppose the thought is that you can then trade some of those offspring for unrealted animals and slowly build up more founder pairs), but you have to be prepared to dedicate spaces to those additional animals we breed or tarde for. if we halt breeding a pair of valuable animals simply becuse their is lack of space we will find ourselves in the same predicament again in a decades time. at the moment its all a bit difficult as not all zoos can commit to the same species and even if they do not necessarily at the same time! so while we are slowly phasing out-species to make space we are slowly phasing others in! (though admittedly maybe not as many but their is a bigger expectation on how we house those animals) and each zoo is often phasing in a different species from one another.. we are looking at a big mass extinction of many of our zoo animals in this country. but maybe thats what needs to happen? we will then end up with a much larger population of a smaller collection and then we can slowly start agreeing to import in bulk new (or old) species coperatively and at the same time with plenty of available space for expansion...
If our Major zoos could work out a special deal to import a few hoofed species like Bongo from a few major overseas zoos (which are quarantine stations away) and then Quarantine them again in Maybe New Zealand or on the Cocos (keeling islands) and then put them into our own Major zoos which are also quarantine stations it could be a way forward with three levels of Quarantine. maybe our zoos could do a joint import of a number of animals at once of the same species.
Pat your theory on creating programs seem to me to be quite sound. The sumatran tiger, though we have a large population in the region is a good example. All the animals are either descendants, or mated to descendants, of just two pairs. These two pairs are so interrelated that they couldn't be seperated. The white rhino I feel is an excellent example of how it should be done. We have a large founder population, with, I presume, little relatedness between them. (That depends on their past) There are at least five male bloodlines and about 16 females lines. All the males have bred and we are just waiting on about half the females. Still this provides a good base for a sustainable po[ulation, so long as spaces can be found for all the young, both this generation and the future ones.Would anyone know if there is anything stopping young born here from being exported overseas?
It comes down to Money in the end as many things seem to do, Monarto and (I think) WPZ were going to be breeding centres for the city zoos at first but I guess they just needed the extra cash for running those places.
