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Old Original Gorillas

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by GorillaBoy, 6 Nov 2011.

  1. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know Which gorillas were in which groups at the start of the aspinall collections i.e Djoums Group, Bitams Group and any other groups that were at Howletts and Port lympne Throughout the 70's 80's and 90's

    Thanks

    GB
     
  2. Mike11

    Mike11 Well-Known Member

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    The Howletts Gorilla groups are something that has evolved over time, originally starting with one group of individuals from different collections and sellers. The original breeding male was Kisoro, brought in from an American Collections, I could find out which but I havent got the book with me at the moment. If Aspinall Gorillas are you thing, try and find the book "The Best of Friends" By John Aspinall. I have it, and its a truly exceptional book full of his first hand accounts of his animal keeping, try and get hold if it if you can, it should answer all your questions!
     
  3. Mike11

    Mike11 Well-Known Member

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    I can also say here that the original group at Port Lympne, was Djoums family when they moved into the Gorilla Pavillion around the early 1990's.
     
  4. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ill try and get it and thanks for the info :)

    GB
     
  5. Jabiru96

    Jabiru96 Well-Known Member

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    Kisoro came from Lincoln Park Zoo.
     
  6. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Early groupings; (1950's-70's)- these don't include several other Gorillas that died in Howlett's early years.

    Ist main grouping-male Kulu(from Basel) male Gugis. females; Shamba, Mouila, Baby Doll, Juju. (all, including Kulu, were wildcaught)
    then when Kulu died (aged 12);
    male Gugis. females; Shamba, Mouila, Baby Doll, Juju, baby w/c male Mumbah.
    Gugis was infertile/non breeding so Kisoro was brought (on breeding loan only) from Lincoln Park Zoo. Gugis and Kisoro alternated with the females for a while so that Gugis didn't feel left out, but this wasn't a satisfactory situation and created a lot of stress in the grouping.
    When Gugis died(pneumonia, aged 18));
    male Kisoro, females Shamba, Mouila, Baby Doll, Juju.- Ist breeding group (all the above were kept in the original run of cages).

    During 1960's-80's, other young Gorillas were brought in too;
    Djoum/Mushie(pair) Bitam, Etoumbie/Founa (2 males, 1 female.) Young male Mumbah was added to Djoum/Mushie and they also lived as 2.1 until adulthood, when he was later sent to Columbus(he was surplus for Howletts, they had too many males.) male Etoumbie(also surplus )was sent back to Africa(to a research station in Franceville Gabon?) in return for a female 'Tebe' which came from there.
    Female Sidonie (humanised) came from a private owner in France. Later joined Djoum's(?) group.
    Lomie(female came from London Zoo on loan, circa 1980) was kept first with Kisoro, but then in Djoum's group at Howletts.(she bred twice with him)

    Later imports from wild included males Djala & Kouillou, and females Sangha, Soundu, also Dihi(from Apenheul) was exchanged for male Kisabu (zooborn Howletts). Female Bamenda from Jersey was exchanged for female Kishka- added to Bitam's group.

    After Kisoro was reclaimed/sent back to USA( to Denver) his females at Howletts,(Mouila,Shamba, Baby Doll, Juju,) were taken over by Bitam and formed the original 'Bitam's group' (in the Gorillarium now used by Djanghou's group).

    Djoum's early group(at Howletts) comprised Sidonie, Mushie, Lomie and probably Founa.. The first 'Djoum's group' (in the Gorillarium now used by Kouillou group).

    I can't remember the animals in Djoum's group when he went to Port Lympne, but it was a small group. Kisoro's group had started breeding in 1975 and from the 1980's onwards more groups were set up using the imported and zooborn animals- Kijo's, and later Kouillou's, Djala's and Kifu's.
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2011
  7. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much what group was in the enclosure where there is now the old ladies ( Mouila, Baby Doll, Juju and young Barney and Shasha) and what year were the two new enclosures at the front built ??

    GB
     
  8. Mike11

    Mike11 Well-Known Member

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    Early/Mid 1990's for the newer enclosures i'd imagine, and by then I think the gorilla numbers were bursting a tad!
     
  9. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Main groups;
    Kulu/Gugis + Mouila/Shamba/Baby Doll/Juju + Mumbah.
    Kisoro + Mouila/Shamba/Baby Doll/Juju.
    +
    Bitam/Etoumbie/Founa.
    Djoum/Mushie/Mumbah.

    The partitions were closed to allow the seperate 'groups' above all to live in there at the same time.
    Other gorillas have also been housed in there too at various stages, mostly when they first arrived as youngsters- Djala, Tebe, Kouillou, Sounda & Sangha, and more recently the Djanghou group when it was started.
    The 3 oldest females are back where they first lived nearly fifty years ago.
    I do not remember when the original two Gorillariums were built- the books mentioned above should tell you though.
     
  10. john

    john Well-Known Member

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    ""Later imports from wild included males Djala & Kouillou, and females Sangha, Soundu, also Dihi(from Apenheul) was exchanged for male Kisabu (zooborn Howletts). Female Bamenda from Jersey was exchanged for female Kishka- added to Bitam's group.""

    Dihi has been zoobred, as did Bamenda. Kisabu must be Kibabu (Kisoro x Baby Doll). Once the rumour went that Kijo should go to Apenheul instead of Kibabu.

    Kibabu now lives in Sydney and is going to leave for New Zealand
     
  11. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Kibabu- I can never get his name right:eek:- its because the same parents had another son, confusingly called Kisabu- though that one died.

    I didn't mean Dihi and Bamenda were from the wild, but wrote it badly. Bamenda died at quite a young age but has one daughter(Emba) still living in the Kouillou group. This was the only exchange they ever made with Jersey gorillas.

    I never heard the story that Kijo might have gone to Apenheul. He was arguably the most handsome of Howletts' males.
     
  12. john

    john Well-Known Member

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    Aspinall is an old gambler. So he weighted his chances. So did Wim Mager. Part of the delay was the possible depart of Kijo (to Apenheul) or his stay at Howletts (what come to be the result).
    Dihi came after Kibabu fathered three babys. As stated on forhand as a part of the deal.
     
  13. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    What were the first gorillas at port lympne from then up until now ??

    GB
     
  14. mazfc

    mazfc Well-Known Member

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    Could you look this information up on the gorilla studbook? It's a very good site, then you could ask members to fill in your gaps from this personal research.
     
  15. Pertinax

    Pertinax Well-Known Member

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    Good idea.

    Again from memory, the first group to occupy the 'purpose build bachelor quarters' (the original divided Roundhouse and the first Gorilla house at Port Lympne) wasn't males, but in fact Djoum's group with females, but I can't remember exactly which, though it was a very small group. It included Sidonie, but not Lomie, from his Howletts grouping. Founa never went to PL. Two other females that did I think, were Tamba and Kabinda -but that might have been after Djoum died. Lomie had been moved to Chessington but hers and Djoum's son 'Jomie' lived in this group also and bred with Kabinda, but both their young were deformed and d.n.s.

    After Djoum died it was used for a male group- I think its always been the same animals as are still in it now. Jomie wasn't part of that group, he was moved into the old Chimp tower and females Tamba/Kabinda were relocated to Howletts again.

    Djala also lived with two(?) females in the old Chimpanzee(tower) cage at one stage, before being moved back to Howletts to form a larger breeding group in Bitam's old enclosure. Jomie lived in there (alone) too- at a separate stage, before he was moved to ZSL. That's where he killed the Colobus monkey I think.

    The 2nd 'Pavilion' for males originally housed Boulas + several others (names?) including Kishum who was sent to St Martin La Pleine with two females.

    The 'Palace of the Apes' was built specifically for Djala's group moved over from Howletts. They are the only group to have used it.

    As suggested, looking in the studbook will give you all the relevant dates of transfers of animals from Howletts to Port Lympne (and some which returned again) etc, from which you can extrapolate most of the data you want about who lived with who etc.
     
    Last edited: 19 Nov 2011
  16. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the Info can you send me a link to the studbook ??

    Thanks again

    GB
     
  17. mazfc

    mazfc Well-Known Member

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    Enter gorilla studbook into google - it's the first site
     
  18. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ill take a look through it :)

    GB
     
  19. GorillaBoy

    GorillaBoy Well-Known Member

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    I Got the book its fantastic! answers all my questions etc.

    Thanks for suggesting it:)

    Do you know any other books by John or Damian Aspinall.

    Im getting the 'A Passion To Protect' i believe its a documentary but cant fina anywhere else for 'echo of the wild' and 'Aspinalls animals down' any places you think i could get these ??

    GB
     
  20. Shorts

    Shorts Well-Known Member

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    It's not by either, but it's about John, "The Passion Of John Aspinall" by Brian Masters. It's a biography of John Aspinall (written quite a bit before his death, so not his entire life) and, in my opinion, is a much better written (and enjoyable to read) book than the one you've already got.