Mod's note: This post was split from the following discussion: Dartmoor Zoo - Death of Dartmoor's Wolves Dartmoor is now a charity with some very good trustees and a new team coming on board who have some decent plans which include Orangutans, Macaques, Amur Leopards, Jaguar exhibit Improvement, Small primate walkthrough and so on. So I don't see there any chance of Dartmoor crashing and burning as you put it. Benjamin Mee has got a good team together now, and has some plans to really improve the zoo in the next few years with big improvements which will aid many conservation projects.
It seems you've got a soft spot for Dartmoor (nothing wrong with that, we've all got collections we're disproportionate fond of) but I think you're being a little too credulous if you think they'll be housing Orangutans anytime soon. Their exhibits costs millions, not the tens of thousands you can throw up a reasonably functional carnivore exhibit for, and given Dartmoor's low visitor numbers and it's placement near to a number of other, almost all significantly better, animal attractions I really can't see how it all fits together. Good trustees and good management are all well and good but nothing moves forward, in terms of major new exhibits, without significant cash profit/injections.
Shorts, not so much a soft spot. Just been fortunate to get close to a few people there, and been lucky enough to spend time with the owner and hear first hand plans and ambitions. Benjamin's second book Never Buy A Zoo, will give a huge viewpoint to the way the zoo is headed. You may think that Orangutans is unlikely, but there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. If you know much about Apes and the Moral Compass and the laws behind keeping apes as pets and their rights and also what the vision of some people out in Hong Kong and Japan have, you may understand just what Dartmoor are working on, and how this may be funded. Also they work with ex soldiers who have suffered with PTSD and also people with disabilities (mainly like Autism, and learning difficulties) enabling them to use animals and work within the zoo field to improve their condition of life. This will lead to very strong grants and funding which will enable the Zoo to move in the direction they want to. Plus they are planning to work with a couple of very big conservation plans which also adds in good funding. Dartmoor already do a lot for education and well being of people and there's a lot going on behind the scenes people don't know and it's a shame they don't make more reference to it on their website. Having met Benjamin, I can honestly say he is one of the nicest, passionate people I have ever met. Some people feel he can be a little too ambitious, but what he does in the local and even wider community and the people he gives chances to and the work it creates, should be applauded. I can't wait for the second book to be published as I think it will open a lot of people's eyes and see what an amazing bloke he is, and the passion and drive he has behind him in the way he wants to the zoo to go forward. It may not be this year, next year or the year after, but the fields they are working in, will see Orangutans at Dartmoor, and it is because of the work they are doing or Benjamin is doing I should say further afield.
Interesting point you make - so Dartmoor will have the £5 million roughly that they’d need for a good enclosure for orangutans because they work with people with autism and PTSD.....? Doubt that that would be enough I’m afraid...* I think, if I’m honest, that things need to not be taken so literally....just because a person (no matter how high up they are) says they would like to get a certain species does not in the slightest mean they will end up doing so. Prime examples of this include LA with their golden snub nosed monkeys, Prague with their giant pandas, a certain European species that was mentioned at the Chester AGM and expected for well over a year before falling through at the last hurdle, and to be crude the entire masterplan announced by Edinburgh in 2008.... *For the record I myself am on the autistic spectrum, before anyone starts accusing me of preaching hate against individuals with either condition
I have little doubt that Benjamin is sincere and passionate in what he says and does, it's just that from experience I've seen a lot of lofty ambitions (and sometimes official announcements) come to nothing. About a decade ago, the then director of Twycross claimed that, within five years, there would be a new Chimp enclosure, Lions, Hyenas, and a replacement Elephant House including bull accommodation (around the same time it was implied they'd be going into Okapi too)-aside of the Chimp enclosure which has recently dawdled home (much later than promised) none of this has yet to materialise. Recent zoo history is littered with similar situations. Similarly, around a decade or so ago Benjamin Mee said he hoped to get Giraffes, the clocks still ticking on that one. Would you hazard to state a year by which Dartmoor would have Orangs and back up with a fun wager? It's not that I wouldn't want to see a zoo do well, it's just that I've seen enough ebb and flow over the years to be sceptical of grandiose plans (most smaller zoos struggle to evolve well, let alone grow in any kind of revolutionary way).
@Shorts It's more the links in the far east that could enable Orangs. I don't really want to say too much as I don't know what I can say, shouldn't say and so on. But briefly, there are a group out in Japan, who are trying to prove that Apes understand like humans and have a moral compass, they feel emotion and this will change the way they can be treated in some areas where they don't have the nicest of lives. The plan was to work with Orangs in teaching them sign language to help deaf people and show apes understand, show intelligence and can show feelings. I know that those at the top at Dartmoor are working with this project and this could end up very fruitful for them. That's all I'm saying.
Quite... and I say that as someone who can also cite the same caveat about my own status Perhaps the perfect illustration of just how far good intentions and a strong record of work with worthy causes actually compensates for a lack of cash-flow and footfall can be seen in Galloway Wildlife Conservation Park, a collection which a) was owned and run by a married couple who themselves have hearing disabilities b) actively promoted awareness of physical and learning disabilities and did a lot of fundraising work in this area and c) regularly held events specifically aimed towards members of these groups..... but which d) was far from the beaten track, had low footfall from passing trade and in these regards was very much like Dartmoor. It closed down a little over a year ago, after coming close for some years prior.
@Zooreviewsuk forgive me, but you seem to post a lot of news on the forum that you've heard from your friends and keeper acquaintances, yet I cannot recall any instance where any major news you've posted has actually come to fruition... Chester's Bears of the World, Bristol's shift to a primate-focused collection plan, the arrival of a pair of Aardwolves and other species to Hemsley from a source that keeps none of said species, and now orangutans at Dartmoor. I'm not going to say you're lying, but I will suggest that maybe you need take your sources' information with a little more skepticism- or perhaps refrain from posting what's undoubtedly meant to be private information on a public forum. I cannot help but be reminded of a certain American poster who had a habit of posting news told in confidence onto the forum only for the zoo to start feeding them lies which, of course, ended up on the forum much to that member's regret. ~Thylo
To be fair, and I don't believe for a minute that Dartmoor will get orangutans, it doesn't cost £10m to build an exhibit! I doubt Monkeyworld spent 10% of that on theirs and it is adequate ( not Islands though)!
You think Dartmoor are getting orangutans because your source tells you they are involved in a project to teach the species sign-language, so that the orangutans can help deaf people? Sorry for being blunt..... but I think someone is not so much pulling your leg as tearing it off
I still can't see how this will bring in the millions needed, interesting though it may be. Also, wouldn't it be much more straightforward, more efficient and cost effective to teach humans sign language to help deaf people? Time will tell, but I won't be holding my breath.............
Wait....orangutans are going to be teaching deaf people sign language? Seems the new planet of the apes spinoff is coming to Devon folks....
Thylo there have been a number of things I have posted which have been prior to announced by Zoo's as well. I do believe I was put away re Chester. I also gave a few plans for Wild Place and named the species going to Bear wood a while before it was published if you care to look back. However a couple of people on here, know of what I passed on regards HCC and they were passed on in confidence and they will soon see, as that comes to fruition. Some of the links I have are down to funding and looking for business relationships of sponsoring exhibits and so on, so I see no reason why anything passed on in those regards to myself would be lies or putaways when in fact the business I work with is looking to sponsor exhibits for exposure and make donations to the Zoo's themselves. If you read above, I have not said Orangs would definitely end up at Dartmoor, but that there is significant interest because of an area that they are working with, and something that may provide the link up in time, because of their support and work with something already happening. I appreciate your heads up however. But for instance, if the company was looking to donate thousands to a zoo to sponsor an exhibit and so on, it would make no sense for said zoo to lie to said company about something, when it would obviously jeopardise any commercial deal so to speak.
Nice of you to jest, but it's something that is already being done in Japan, to help prove Apes have a moral compass, so they can't be privately owned and have the living daylights beat out of them and be treated cruelly by owners, and it not be acted upon, because in affect, they are deemed as someone's property. There is already a centre in Japan working on proving apes have feelings and show a moral compass so legislation's can be challenged and hopefully addressed. Getting Orangutans to learn sign language is just one side of this.
Teaching orangutans sign language is not what we find so risible about your claims. Your claim that the orangutans will then be used as support workers for the deaf is the ludicrous part..... and I highly doubt that, as you claim, this is already happening in Japan.
Okay I am going to give a hypothetical scenario. Company in Japan, believe they can prove apes have feelings, and have flown in comedians to entertain them, make they laugh, show them montages to show sadness, get them to learn and develop skills to communicate and to shown emotion. The results of this could change the way Apes are kept in certain areas of the world, where they are mistreated and deemed as someones property, so it is not illegal to treat them as property and not so much as living beings. The company in Japan, want to get their Apes to prove this and then be shown in exhibits around the world to educate people that Apes (the closest living relative we have) are in fact very similar to humans and can show the same emotions. Certain people are working already with these companies out in Japan, involved in the project and should it become successful would be high up, as a place where these animals can be exhibited to educate people, and prove they have a moral compass. Many millions is going into these studies, and I know of two people who are going out to the centre in Japan next year, I am also told a world renowned comedian is also very interested in being involved and wanting to be part of it. It wouldn't so much be the Zoo's or whatever paying to build these exhibits to show these animals but the companies who have worked on this, and by proving this around the world with the apes they have developed the bonds with to prove moral compass , it would mean that legislation could be challenged and it would educate people better. Proving an Ape has moral compass, knows the difference between right and wrong, can openly learn a way to communicate with humans and show emotion, that alone from ECG brain exam results would pave the way for millions in funding from these companies working on this already in Japan.
