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Reptilarium, schematic!

Discussion in 'Fantasy Zoos' started by Nikola Chavkosk, 6 Apr 2016.

  1. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    I draw this photo-plan, as part of my hobby for planing for a new zoo, last time I draw schematic presentation of enclosure for chimps or orangutans from the concept: Multi-part enclosure as stimulating, reserve and rotating enclosures.

    This is my planned reptilarium. It would be kept next reptile species:
    Cuban crocodile
    Dwarf crocodile
    Aldabra giant tortoise
    Radiated tortoise
    Madagascar spider tortoise
    Pancake tortoise
    Crocodile monitor
    Blue-spotted tree monitor
    Cuban iguana
    Fiji banded or Fiji short-crested iguana
    Solomon Island skink
    New Caledonian giant gecko
    Usambara two-horned chameleon
    King cobra
    Indochinese spitting cobra
    Samar cobra
    Red spitting cobra
    Eastern green mamba
    Papuan or coastal (Australian) taipan
    Rhinoceros viper
    Great Lakes bush viper
    Eyelash viper
    Side-stripped palm pit viper
    Mexican West coast rattlesnake
    Neotropical rattlesnake
    Emerald tree boa
    Boelen's python
    Brongersman's blood python

    For example, one king cobra would have an enclosure of 12.6 m2 (1.8 x 7.0 m), or 1-3 rattlesnakes would have at least two enclosures 5.4 m2 each (total 10.8 m2). The smalest one enclosures (1 x 1 m) are for small snakes like palm pit vipers or bush vipers, and for single lizards like chameleons or skinks.
    The height of most enclosures is just 1.5 m (reducing demands for heating), but arboreal species would have at least 3.0 m height enclosures.

    I do my hobby in nights, because I don't have a lot of time durring day. What do you think about the concept?


    [​IMG]

    The heating would include solar pannels, mini windmills, gas, and electicity.

    The colours denotes semi-arid, savanah with sparce forest, and tropical rainforest environments.
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2016
  2. Batto

    Batto Well-Known Member

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    Shall I be honest?

    If no-please continue with your pipe dreams.

    If yes:

    It's just an old-fashioned species stamp collection in an implausible scenario (a box in a box in a box). You just listed some species you like without really considering their different husbandry requirements and how the consequential building aspects will hinder practical zookeeping(try getting a Green mamba out safely for any reason from 3m height, or separate fighting crocs...). Your size ratios and the energy scenario aren't plausible. Besides, I don't understand how visitors would be able to see any animals within the inner "boxes".

    Maybe you should take a look at this book
    [ame=http://www.amazon.de/Exhibiting-Zoo-Animals-author-redundant/dp/3865232582/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1459923459&sr=8-3&keywords=erik+zoo]Exhibiting Zoo Animals: The book that makes its author redundant: Amazon.de: Erik van Vliet: Fremdsprachige Bcher[/ame]
    to understand that modern zoo husbandry and presentation isn't about presenting as many species as possible, but instead about presenting fewer animals within a plausible and coherent context to maximise the educational and entertainment effect.
    For example, instead of just presenting several tortoise species (no other chelonians?) along one another, you could have the exhibit of one large species as a centerpiece, with a selected few drastically different (smaller, different behaviour / body shape etc.) species around to exemplify chelonian diversity.
    Instead of two crocodilian species, you could just present one, allowing for breeding and (public) medical training exercises. And you could point out that they are actually closer related to birds than to reptiles...

    Just displaying one species after another has a fatiguing effect on the attention span of most visitors, which can be countered by allowing for a more vivid, interrelated presentation. The old reptile houses might have a more or less fascinating "old school" charme to some; from a practical and educational pov, they are rather lacking.
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2016
  3. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    Yes Batto you should be honest.

    Actually the inner boxes will be not vissible for visitors as they are primarly reserve enclosures or for holding some specimens from particular species from wich the rest specimens or other specimen is exhibited in outer enclosures.

    The enclosures for crocs are first planned as for juvenile crocs (most easy to obtain) and there are sepparation enclosures adjacent to them. I agree that it is better to exhibit maybe one croc species. But it's not just for exhibition purposes, also ex situ conservation.

    I don't know why you state that the diversity of species should be with fewer animal species, because 27-30 species of reptiles as I plan is not big number? They are not over 60 to 100 species? Plus mostly are snakes, wich I consider, together with tortoise, that are most easy to keep from reptiles, and lizards having most complex needs.

    I would agree that this draw is imperfect in some parts (eg. I should add bigger enclosures for Aldabra giant tortoise when they will grow, or another enclosures for the crocs).

    Chelonians.. should I add turtles? I think they have quite complex needs to be successfully breed in captivity?

    And why you think that sizes and energy scenarios are not plausible? The interenclosure septa are from transparent or non-transparent plastics. I would not love to build ''Dark building'' in wich will be incorporated terrariums in it's walls and everything will be artifitial, even the lights, without natural light and UV from sun. That's also more expensive project. (Ok here the climate also plays a role, but..) I would be very thankfull if you quote to this.

    As for ventilation, upper inner sides from enclosures would be made of mesh and HEPA -filters, wich will allow some air circulation, and plus ventilaiton in every enclosure with fresh air directly from the outside.

    Microclimatic conditions and their control are not described. I am afraid of over-heating in enclosures because of glass-garden effect, particularly in late spring and summer months when temperatures here often reach 38 - 41 degrees (and comfort temperature zone for most reptiles is 24-32 deg C). Control measures for prevention of over-heating will include shadow roofs, water-dispersers, opened roofs.
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2016
  4. Batto

    Batto Well-Known Member

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    If you want to exhibit animals, you should keep their final adult size in mind-and be aware of any circumstances that would make it necessary to have extra holdings.

    What is the sense in having the non-public inner boxes in a central position? It's a waste of space and ressources. If you want to have a public and a behind the scenes area, a more practical spatial separation would be recommendable.

    Given the space dimensions, 30 species is a large number. If you were to do serious ex-situ conservation work, you'd focus on a few selected species and have more specimens of them-instead of having, say, six non-endangered elapid species just for the sake of it...

    Neither tortoises nor snakes are in general "easy" to keep; the Boelen's python, for example, wouldn't last long in such a scenario due to overheating. Given the individual species, turtles can be just as "hard" or "easy" to keep as tortoises...

    "mesh and HEPA -filters" + "opened roofs" + fast agile elapids prone to escape = not a very good idea

    "I would be very thankfull if you quote to this." ?
    And it's not "I would not love to" but "I wouldn't LIKE"...or even better, "prefer".

    You should make up your mind: do you want to keep species that could be kept in your scenario inspired by the (expensive) UV permissive plastic roofs of Hellabrunn's giant tortoise house (i.e. Aldabra or radiated tortoisesand Cycylura sp.) or a conventional "dark building" that allows for the safe, controlled husbandry of venomous snakes (and species requiring a better control of temperatures and humidity)?
     
  5. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    I'll take in consideration all that you wrote. After all this is just a plan and will be additionaly changed/adapted. Plus every time I draw plans, every time they are different. Thank you.

    The roof will be protected by mesh, yet opened, so there will be no chance of any escape. I will use simple transparent roof plastic pannels (not UV-permeable), that will be removable by hand (eg. blocks of 1.8 x 1.5 m) for allowance of sun light to enter the enclosures.

    Why you say inner boxes, they're behined the scenes enclosures, since not every animal in every zoo is exhibited to the public. Actuali those boxes are of size like small rooms (3 x 1.8 metres, or 2 x 1.8 m, or 1 x 1 m).

    But I will reduce the number of species planed, and I will draw new plan.
     
  6. Batto

    Batto Well-Known Member

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    :D You've clearly never kept a snake...:D
     
  7. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I had never kept snake, but I have been into very close contact with native snakes here, including agile colubrides like Platyceps najadum. But how can one snake (elapid or other) escape trough mesh with very small holes wich prevents even passing of let say, Typhlops vermicularis?

    Investigation of native reptiles here, in the nature is very exciting Batto, would you ever came here on such walk trough local hills/mountains? :p

    And forgot to answer, I would never built ,,Dark building'' as for reptilarium, I prefer more natural enclosures, with sun entering the enclosures, and reptiles would be more agile and vital in such circumstances.
     
  8. Batto

    Batto Well-Known Member

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    Two things: patience & power. Snakes are natural escape artists. If there's just a tiny irregularity in your mesh, a dedicated snake will find it, and use it to its advantage.

    Indoor reptile enclosures are a given in countries whose climates do not permit year-long outdoor husbandry, and do not outrule naturalistic enclosure design if done properly (plenty of examples for that in the Gallery section). They don't have to be "dark", either ; ever heard of illumination? ;)
     
  9. FelipeDBKO

    FelipeDBKO Well-Known Member

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    This discussion is a good reason for us to talk of what would be an innovative reptile house, the best way of reptiles being kept...
     
  10. animal_expert01

    animal_expert01 Well-Known Member

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    You may want to consider adding a smal "Saftey Room" containing things like antivenom, safety glasses (from the spitting Cobras), banadnges (for crocodile and non venoumous snake bites), snake mite medicine and emergency phone (to call 000). You may also want to add a "Feeding Room where you would keep your live prey (crickets, roaches, rats, mice etc) and a large freezer (to hold dead chickens, rabbits and fish for the monitors and crocodiles and vegetables for the tortoises). You may also wants consider adding a vegetable patch so you could have easy access to vegetables for the tortises. Apart from that sounds good!
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2016
  11. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    Actually those parts are planned to be located elswere in the zoo, like in veterinary ambulance (antivenom, medicines), station for keeping and prepearing food (including silo, fridges, freezers, kitchen etc.), growing plants as food planted around this complex (like tea plants) and in sepparate small gardens in the zoo, or purchasing them from the locals (rural support), and small objects (like safety glasses - inside, under smaller terarriums or hanged on walls).
    Anyway thank you for suggestion. This now probably will be changed - the concept and plan, as I almost always change my plans (that can mean developing of concept). Probably I would include less species of reptiles (about 18), with more terrariums. I would also act as single and only-holding reptilarium for particular small species, like for Mount Rungwe bushviper (Atheris rungweensis) - from Africa (amazing snake)!
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2016
  12. animal_expert01

    animal_expert01 Well-Known Member

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    So it is part of a zoo aswell? It's not just a small private facility?
     
  13. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    It can be either way, depending on funds and availabe space. Initially I planned it as part of zoo, with other main sections - aviary and biggest part mammals sections. Because I would love a zoo with mammals, birds, reptiles, frogs and possibly terrestrial invertebrates, and then even smaller aquarium, but not many spesies of animals, aproximately 15 species mammals, 20 birds, 20 reptiles, 10 frogs.

    But it can end up beeing just reptilarium as zoo with reptiles only, and in that case all things that you suggested will be in or adjacent to reptilarium.
     
  14. FelipeDBKO

    FelipeDBKO Well-Known Member

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  15. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    Seem interesting FelipeDBKO, I can barely undertand it (on Portugese), but I may understand something.

    What it says about, in general?
     
  16. FelipeDBKO

    FelipeDBKO Well-Known Member

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    You didn't noticed the English translation on the right? :p
     
  17. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    You caught me :p I don't, but I will today, yesterday I don't have time enough (I returned from one day holiday on sea in Greece).
     
    Last edited: 25 Jul 2016
  18. Nikola Chavkosk

    Nikola Chavkosk Well-Known Member

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    Amazing enclosures and inhabitants. The enclosures (some) for snakes are bigger than conventional one seen in most zoos. I would only change the artifitial lights - I would prefer natural light from sun and direct sun influence via roof, to reach to the reptiles. Also some simulation should be made eg. periodical turning off the UV-lights and intense light as would be case in the wild in a rainy/cloudy/foggy day. I suppose captive reptiles in zoos are constantly exposed to UV-lights durring a day, all-year round?
    Big part of the snakes are very rare in zoos/or are not represented in European zoos, and big part are Brazilian endemic snakes.

    FelipeDBKO you may create a Thread solely for Butantan institute and inform us about news, and for more important things wich are writed only on Portugese? I would be very interesting thread - place it in Brazil section?
     
    Last edited: 25 Jul 2016
  19. Batto

    Batto Well-Known Member

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    While I appreciate FelipeDBKO's posting this video, I disagree with Nikola's praise. The quality of the tanks, as it is the case with the majority of public reptile husbandry, is lacking in regards to both the husbandry demands of the reptiles and naturalistic presentation; the enclosures are often small, barren and rather sterile (pine bark is a pretty inadequate bedding for many reptiles, btw.). While the bilingualism of the info signs is a positive feature and the information provided in the text and pictograms is helpful, some of it isn't (the maximum sizes are often exaggerated).

    As previously explained, the use of natural sun light for indoor terraria is limited due to various aspects. Adjustable terraria dimmer systems allow for a circadian light and temperature regime imitating natural conditions.
    "I suppose captive reptiles in zoos are constantly exposed to UV-lights during a day, all-year round?" Not at all, and often not adequately.
    While there are some interesting species rarely observed in captivity outside South America (or Brazil in particular), I've seen (and in some cases even kept myself) most of the displayed species in captivity.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2016
  20. FelipeDBKO

    FelipeDBKO Well-Known Member

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    The Butantan Institute also has 2 or 4 (I don't remember) spacious enclosures outside. In this video you can't see, but the same guy recorded it in an older video:
    youtube.com/watch?v=T4boI6TVupo
    (the top of the exhibit appears on the right side in 1:00 and inside in 01:17)

    The Butantan Institute is a research center that receive venomous animals often for the development of serums, so most of the animals are from Brazil. Animals that are on display are only a small part of all that Butantan Institute has.

    I think it would be interesting as well as some birds, many Brazilian snakes aren't well known abroad.
    I don't live very close to the Butantan Institute and I only visited it one time... But maybe I'll some other time and create a thread.



    I found it interesting to make a list of some Brazilian snakes:

    Crotalus durissus, mainly C. d. terrificus
    -A lot of Bothrops snakes, like B. jararaca , B. jararacussu , B. alternatus , B. moojeni , B. neuwiedi, B. n. pauloensis, B. n. diporus, B. n. mattogrossensis, B. cotiara, B. insularis, B. erythromelas, B. fonsecai, B. marmoratus, B. taeniatus, B. alcatraz... Some, like the first three, are well known in Brazil, while others don't.
    -Bothriopsis bilineata (before Bothrops bilineatus)
    -Lachesis muta
    -Coral snakes, usually of the genus Micrurus.
    -"Fake coral snakes". It has no specific scientific classification, as this is the name of several species. One of them is Oxyrhopus guibei.
    -Boa constrictor, B. c. amarali
    -Epicrates cenchria, E. c. assisi, E. c. hygrophilus, E. c. crasssus
    -Corallus caninus, C. batesii
    -Corallus hortulanus
    -Eunectes murinus, E. notaeus
    -Clelia clelia
    -"Water snake" Helicops modestus. There are other snakes with this name like Liophis modestus.
    -Sibynomorphus mikanii
    -Spilotes pullatus
    -"Vine snakes", like Oxybelis fulgidus, Philodryas olfersii, P. nattereri, P. patagoniensis, Tropidodryas striaticeps...
    -Waglerophis merremii
    -Hydrodynastes gigas