As always agree one hundred per cent with the comments made by the above two gentlemen, a pleasure to read your postings.
Reading this thread from 2010 is pretty awful considering what the next happening in the ZSL saga is. All very sad, Ipersonally wish they had stayed with chimps at ZSL as they are now underrepresented in UK zoos in my opinion, whereas there are some very viable breeding groups of gorillas dotted around. It's interesting to point out that ZSL caused the issue with Aspinall and Howletts way back when they rebuffed an offer of help from him as he was 'only an amateur'. They looked down on the gorilla enclosure designs, especially the use of deep straw litter as a substrate. Ironic that these designs proved so successful with gorilla family group management. Chessington's gorilla enclosure was designed after consultation and advice from Howletts and the breeding group there was developed using the joint experience of Ian Williams (ex-Howletts) and Michael Riozzi. Aspinall was so proud of describing him self and all of us working there as 'just amateurs' til the end of his days. I really feel for Tracey and the Mammals South team and hope that 2012 is a much happier year.
Interesting to hear from someone who is obviously a knowledgeable professional on this subject. The whole history of gorillas at London Zoo, with the exception of a brief interlude in the 1980s, has been pretty awful and represents serial under-achievement. Add this on to the strange world of UK/Irish great ape planning, where the existence of 80+ (!) Western Gorillas at Howletts/Port Lympne is apparently an addendum, and IMHO you have a very expensively built exhibit that, sadly, is a wasted opportunity.
I don't know if there any any plans afoot to exchange the current infertile male Kesho, for a fertile one. I rather think perhaps not at present? I see no reason why, without removing Kesho, they couldn't add a younger male(around 8 years old & fertility-checked) to the existing group, who, with a bit of judicious management when females were in oestrus, could father some babies. Kesho, now being the settled group leader, would automatically accept them as his own. Kesho grew up in the Dublin group with two younger brothers and loves to play, so I am confident he would still accept a younger 'boy'. That would avoid all the complications of rehoming him or integrating a new older male, plus providing an additional gorilla in this very small group. In a few years they could rethink it again if need be.
They very foolishly(IMO) allowed the two young females they bred in the mid 80's to be sent to Belfast. That was ZSL's one chance to build a proper cohesive group and they blew it. Since then, with a long catalogue of disasters and bad luck, they still have just about the least successful group in the whole of Europe.
While 'Gorilla Kingdom' was still in its planning stage, I asked the then Collection Manager what would happen if the concept failed. He said that other species could be brought in to replace the gorillas. As others have said, the history of gorilla breeding at London Zoo is pretty dire. The last straw should have been when staff gambled on the life of the first baby gorilla born at ZSL for 22 years. The baby was only a few months old and was introduced to a male who was not his father. This was shown to be a pointless gamble. Keisho is sterile and Tiny was not destined to be the first of many babies in the group. Keisho killed Tiny and there are still notices talking about the 'patter of tiny feet'. This is so cruel and dishonest. Tiny cost millions of pounds (the cost of building Gorilla Kingdom and obtaining replacements for gorillas that have died at London Zoo over the past couple of decades) and the loss of breeding groups of chimpanzees and orang-utans. As Pertinax says, London Zoo is very unsuccessful at breeding gorillas, far worse than Chessington, Howletts and Port Lympne, which are easy day trips from London. ZSL should send the gorillas to other zoos and choose another species to keep. I like the idea of seeing bonobos, but would also be keen to see sifakas jumping around the grassy enclosure. There are about 750 captive western lowland gorillas in captivity. Zoos have saved these gorillas from extinction and there is no need for London Zoo to continue keeping them. In the last 20 years, 1 gorilla has been born at London Zoo, while 5 have died. This is nothing to be proud of. Enough is enough and the gorillas should leave London Zoo ASAP.
I'd go for bonobos as 1) more of them in captivity, so more easily obtained; 2) a capital city zoo really ought to keep a species of great ape; 3) London Zoo has never kept bonobos. Otherwise, dassierat, you've taken the words out of my mouth.
Thanks Ian The UK's only bonobos are at Twycross, which is difficult to reach by public transport. London Zoo had a good breeding record with chimpanzees and should try to repeat this success with bonobos. It would not be competing with Twycross and would have the only bonobos in South-east England.
That's not correct, there are considerably less Bonobos in captivity than Gorillas (there are only a handful of European zoos that keep them and Howletts alone has considerably more Gorillas than there are Bonobos in the UK). That said, I would hope London had the clout to obtain them and think they'd make a great display species (the Twycross ones are always active) to replace what would seem to be a doomed, dysfunctional Gorilla group.
I think you’ll find that Ian was referring to the relative numbers of captive bonobos and sifakas, not bonobos and gorillas.
I'm still not convinced that London should give up on gorillas but if they did, bonobos would be by far the best alternative; lively, social, almost unique in the UK and of great media interest I think they would make an excellent, high-profile replacement. I'd love it if they could do something with orang utans somewhere too but now we are getting into fantasy masterplan territory...
I think London management still regard the Gorillas as an important drawcard to the Zoo, despite it being such a small group of relatively inactive adults apart from Kesho's play sessions. (The Mangabeys opposite are a much more active display). I think its likely they will remain for some time to come unless there was public pressure to have them removed, and I don't think that is likely as most people expect to see them and don't realise the dysfunctional element of the group. I agree the 'patter of tiny feet' reference on the notices are a bit sick and should be obliterated-at least for now. The most likely replacement if they were moved out would presumably be either be Common Chimpanzees or Bonobos, both more active species than the Gorillas and either would probably use the large outdoor space more than the Gorillas do. If they do keep on with the Gorillas I just hope something is done soon to get them breeding again (adding a 2nd, but younger, male as I suggested above, might prove to be the simplest option) as even a single baby (from Mjukuu, the one certain breeder in the group) would add some much needed dynamic . Just leaving the situation as it is longterm would be the worst option IMO but somehow I don't think they will do that.
Correct. Us Londoners understand each other even if we confuse the hell out of others! Sorry, Shorts!
