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Discussion in 'Taiwan' started by jonas751111, 16 Mar 2013.

  1. Giant Panda

    Giant Panda Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Apologies if my previous post was unclear on this point. Developing conservation breeding protocols is a component of the plan (although assigned the lowest priority rating), but at "established conservation centres". That's one thing. Extending those efforts to new locations, including zoos in Europe and the US, is quite another. No mention is made of this in the plan, hence Leipzig's import is not recommended.

    Surely advocates of a pangolin breeding program (namely you and TeaLovingDave) should be arguing that the resources to put pangolins on display in Europe would be better utilized improving established conservation centres, as recommended by the Pangolin Specialist Group. There's no reason the ex situ work you want to see couldn't be carried out solely in Asia.

    Taking the last decade into account, and assuming TeaLovingDave will correct my figures if they're wrong, the zoo had 8.8 pangolins in 2007 and currently has >20. During that time, only four were conceived and born at Taipei. Certainly a step forward (as are the efforts of Nandankanan, Singapore, and a few other places), but hardly a solid basis for a sustainable captive population.

    Likewise. Given the circumstances, I think my conjecture is best avoided.

    I addressed most of your post above, but some specific points…

    Your experience of the Elephant House sounds time-specific; the situation in summer is rather different. Nonetheless, given that you didn't challenge the rest of that sentence, I assume you'd concede my point: that conditions aren't ideal for the conservation breeding program you're imagining. To state the obvious, the quietest part of the zoo would have been off-exhibit.

    These cases are non-equivalent in just about every way (direct exploitation vs. bycatch, one country vs. bilateral, small vs. declining pop. paradigm, etc.). However, if your analogy was supposed to illustrate that conservation efforts sometimes start too late… Well, duh.

    Since we're on the topic, even your hindsight isn't a wonderful thing. If the Mexican government enforced a total ban on gillnets in the 1990s, the vaquita's predicament probably wouldn't be hopeless. This is a prime example of the failure of in situ conservation. Attempting to establish an ex situ breeding program would have been unnecessary, expensive, deeply controversial, near-impossible logistically, potentially detrimental to in situ efforts, and unlikely to succeed. It would also (and does also) raise serious welfare concerns. This is something I wish you considered before writing off losses as "trial-and-error" and celebrating the import of every new husbandry-challenged species for vacuous notions of "conservation". If nothing else, it makes your derision of @Bib Fortuna's purported dogmatism more than a little hypocritical. Speaking of Bib, he does have a habit of disappearing when challenged, doesn't he?

    The long and short: ex situ conservation requires better justification than "the wild population's falling, let's give it a go". Returning to pangolins, I think the authorities cited above are more convincing than your faith in half-baked breeding programs. And you never responded about that beer ;)
     
    Last edited: 19 Dec 2016
  2. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

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    You'll be pleased to hear that last I heard, the new imports *are* off-exhibit and will remain so. For what it is worth, if a hypothetical import of a dozen pangolins came into European collections I *would* be happier if they remained offshow in dedicated breeding facilities until such time as there were surplus individuals which could be displayed as ambassadors, much as was done for Iberian Lynx and is now being done for Javan Green Magpie - despite what you seem to think, being able to see them is entirely secondary.

    As such I am pleased the new pair is offshow.

    Indeed, sometimes starting a new account altogether when people have tired of his present one; this being one reason, along with the fact he likes to post information long after being corrected, and the fact I have interacted with him in person that I have little patience for him.

    Seldom drink alcohol :p but I *would* be very happy to meet you at some point and have a nice long natter over a drink of some form; we may be pretty opposed on this particular point but I suspect we'd get along quite well on many other discussion points. I've certainly found its a lot easier to discuss contentious issues when you can hear someone's tone of voice and see their body language :) though as alluded above you do get the occasional exception!
     
  3. Giant Panda

    Giant Panda Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Good to hear on both counts.

    Unfortunate really, given that a) he knows his stuff on some subjects, and b) I agree with him.

    Agreed. Barring the occasional blip, I enjoy our differences of opinion. Life would be very dull if everyone agreed with me and pretty exasperating if everyone agreed with you. As it happens, I've even been known to enjoy the occasional Earl Grey…
     
  4. Coelacanth18

    Coelacanth18 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

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    Yes, the captive breeding could theoretically just be carried out in Asia, and if that's the best course of action I don't really have a problem with that idea. I'm not sure why it matters where the conservation centers are located. If it's cheaper and more effective to set it up in range countries, then I would agree on that being a good course of action. However, there are reasons that zoos in Europe and North America could be considered for participation: 1, many institutions already have knowledgeable, educated, and well-trained keepers and veterinary staff that could be trained to care for them; 2, it might be (but might not be) cheaper to use existing facilities there to breed pangolins than to construct new facilities in Asia; 3, it could provide a buffer against a possible demographic catastrophe by spreading the population across many institutions and multiple continents; 4, as TLD said, if the program were to ever reach a point of sustainability they could put animals on exhibit or in education programs as ambassadors for their endangered kin (also like TLD, I don't actually care if pangolins are kept on display or not- I think it would be nice, but we're not to that point yet and it's really not necessary); 5, it might entice more institutions, whether they keep pangolins or not, to contribute conservation money that could pay for additional in situ measures.

    I agree that it's a step forward, but perhaps not the quick progress that is really needed if they are to succeed. I wouldn't have expected them to have already developed a sustainable captive population at this stage, but that's definitely the end goal and I think there is much more progress to be made. Again, I don't know enough about pangolin husbandry or captive breeding programs in general to have an informed opinion about their success or lack thereof, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

    It's certainly a disputable topic and I think a lot of good arguments could be made from either side. I enjoy debating it because there's certainly a lot to take into account, and I prefer to have informed rather than ignorant opinions about these things that matter. And I agree that if everyone just agreed with me or with someone else on things, it would be quite boring; not only that, but it would be counterproductive. Disagreement and debate breeds innovation and creativity.

    You two have fun drinking your beers together :p I'll toast you from across the pond...
     
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  5. kiang

    kiang Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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  6. aardvark250

    aardvark250 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Anyone know when will the rainforest house type of thing be opened?
     
  7. Loxodonta Cobra

    Loxodonta Cobra Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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  8. john

    john Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Are there some new ideas about the future of gorillas in Taipei?
    Breeding possibilities? Additional females? Other groep structure?
     
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  9. john

    john Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    As a gorilla should not be housed for a long term alone, which gorillas will be send to Taipei?

    What are the housing facilities at the moment in Taipei Zoo for the two gorillas?
    Are they often together?
     
  10. john

    john Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Is silverback BaoBao already in training for his transport, coming months?

    How is his physical condition?
    How is his mental condition?
    How are his social skills?
     
  11. john

    john Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    When is BaoBao arriving at Amsterdam?
     
  12. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    June 15, 2018: a Somali wild ass foal born to F Gina.
     
  13. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  14. Jambo

    Jambo Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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  15. Loxodonta Cobra

    Loxodonta Cobra Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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  16. aardvark250

    aardvark250 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    0.1 Aye aye to Taipei from Ueno.
     
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  17. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

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    Source for that?
     
  18. aardvark250

    aardvark250 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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  19. PossumRoach

    PossumRoach Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    And thus Ueno isn't the only zoo in Asia to keep ate ayes anymore.
     
  20. aardvark250

    aardvark250 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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