wah wah wah! realdeal. firstly we have all been to taronga. we have all "bothered" to walk around the exhibit. the fact that you say there is no competition between the melbourne/taronga zookeepers is completely irrelevant. nobody said there was. you questioned us over OUR comparisons of the two zoos. we are not zookeepers. and we reserve the right to compare whatever we like. likewise i know that the calf was sick. i know everything remember. i also know that both melbourne and taronga used slings to assist walking in the other two calves that have been born. thus, whilst it may have been necessary in the most recent case. it does not change the argument. the zoos seem to be making the use of slings standard procedure in ALL BIRTHS. and lastly, i'm bailing out guys. i don't have time to argue with people who miss the point, every time. too frustrating. i've revved her up a bit. she's all yours!
I wouldn't say rivalry but I would say there is good natured, light hearted competition between the zoos. Nobody said there was a rivalry. People on Zoochat that are not in the industry are still allowed to have opions about zoos. I have noted on a number of occasion phoenix has said "I believe" which to me is a way of saying I am not entirely sure but this is how I see it or have interpreted it. And I am not defending phoenix's comments but pheonix does have a right to make them. If they are incorrect then feel free to provide the right information but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Taronga will run out of room for elephants, currently, AFAIK there is nowhere for the young Bulls to go. And if anyone says Dubbo I will headbutt you! Australia Zoo does not have facilities to house Bulls and Adelaide has it's drawcard species for the next ten years. I've said this before but if I believe (although settled and comfortable) that Arna, Gigi and Burma should be moved to Taronga (let's face it they are all quite used to the smaller enclosures). Yum Yum and Cuddles could possibly be moved to another facility (dare I say, maybe even a private zoo that isn't involved in the program). Then the facilities at TWPZ would be completely free for the Breeding program elephants - with room for all three Bulls as the facilities the asians are housed in were built for african bulls. (provided the two calves get on for a while.) Unless there is a major reshuffle of elephants I can see this becoming a problem in the future. Because Dubbo may not be able to take breeding elephants for another 20 years or more. But I am happy to admit I don't know what is planned and what has been discussed. I also don't think it's likely Taronga will give up the new elephants in exchange for older ones.
Boy, people are sure getting upset and defensive when their motives and knowlegde are being questioned. It is easy to dish it out but apparently not easy to receive. Jay, of course non-zoo people need to be be critical of what is going on in zoos, just as people in the business need to be critical. But it does no good when you are arguing based on speculation and not fact. I know that many on this website are only going on what little info is available, but that does not mean it is correct. Please do your best to get real credible information, and then form whatever opinions you like. As I write this, I am realizing what a hypocrite I am. I worked at the zoo for 2 years in a non-zookeeping capacity. I thought I knew everything and had a lot of opinions about how things should be. Now that I am working a keeper (not elephants but that's okay!), I realize how much I was not aware of and that things are not so simplistic. So maybe I should shut up and let this forum be what it was meant to be. But have some faith that there are people in the zoo who are very committed to doing the right thing for these elephants future. Maybe I am being naive and optimistic, but I am hopeful for Australia's future with elephants.
Anyone who doubts keepers involved in the elephant program do not have the animals best interests at heart are kidding themselves. Elephants are a difficult animal to care for (I was once told that if you can look after elephants you can look after anyting). They are both physically and especially mentally draining animals to work with. I know of keepers who ask to be rostered on other divisions for one shift a week because some animals you can nearly keep on auto pilot in comparison. It is not easy work and if they weren't passionate about it they wouldn't be there.
Seems to be doing ok. As far as I know hilderbrant has been in dubbo so he must be satisfied. But I'd give him three months to get the allclear. Jay as your question seems to have been forgotten in all the discussions I'll ask again. I'm not sure but does anyone know what the plans are re future breeding short term at taronga?
I agree with both sides on the divide ....! realdeal is right in saying that very few people outside the industry really have a concept of what goes on and what keepers know/feel and can express about their jobs and what the story behind the story is. phoenix as other ZooChat folk are entitled to their opinions. But remember most are our points of view only. Speculation and sentiments though should be out of the window. So, let us stick to the facts. Personally, I think it is still touch and go for the calf. The fact that he was too weak to stand and was unable for 12 hours or more makes his outlook still 50/50. Truthfully, in the wild this calf would probably - I say probably - not have survived. Having said that: the speculations re sling and all and keeper behaviour after the birth was to be polite sometimes way off the mark and sometimes even totally ill-placed. I just hope we can discuss this in an adult manner from now on.
ARGHHHH! this topic does not nor ever did have ANYTHING to do with the keepers!! realdeal wrongly responded to criticisms of tarongas EXHIBIT as if it were an attack on tarongas keepers - whos professionalism is not the issue and was never raised till she did. this is like responing to criticism of the Iraq war by praising the commitment of the troops. it's completely irrelevant. this whole argument of hers MAKES NO SENSE!
KB, Phoenix's statement was about the exhibit not about the keepers, we know they have a first class team there so lets make this clear
After watching the video explanation, it seems his whole left side had 'seized up' from the very prolonged delivery. I too think its unlikely he would have survived in the wild as he would probably never have been able to stand up properly in order to suckle. So its fortunate this was a captive birth as I think the human intervention and therapy quite likely saved his life. But now he's moving around normally(?), feeding and behaving like any other ele calf, I would put his survival chances a lot higher than 50/50 I think.
I tend to agree with you Pertinax, the calf has been out with all the herd daily and also playing with the other older calf so he sounds like he has been doing well, an update on him would be nice
He is doing really really well, running around he has even started to move around with out being under mum. He moves normaly most if the time some times he's a bit stiff but all in all has no negative sideeffects
In that case I would rate his survival chances as virtually equivalent to any other similar-aged calf now. I remember a wildlife documentary on the African Elephant 'Echo' where a calf was produced that could not stand up properly as it had contracted tendons on its front legs- it shuffled around on its knees to start with but managed to stand properly on Day 3. I cannot remember if it survived longterm- I think it did.
YES he did survive, I saw that doco more than once , they made a follow up doco years later showing him much older. If I remember correct he was a huge calf of almost 300lbs so had little room to spare before birth so his front legs were folded up extra tight, it took some time after birth for them to straighten out
Agreed there. The docu is about Echo, elephant matriarch in Amboseli ecosystem. The captive birth/rescuue is testament to the fact that captivity saves elephant lives ... As to survival chances, I keep an open mind and hope we will be pleasantly surprised for a good 50-60 years ....
Here is some info for the echos cripled calf, it turned out he is a big healthy male know, lets hope the same happens to mr shuffles The Return of Echo's Son | ATE
An update on Mr Shuffles on Taronga zoos website yesterday says he doing well and will be named tomorrow, GO Mr Shuffles!!!!!!!!!!!
If I was a betting man, I'd wager for sure he'll get that name (Pathi Harn?) that means 'Miracle' Am I right, or am I right?
