The stupid Norwegian reptile and amphibian keeping law

Some weeks ago a norwegian television programme called "Insider", had a documentary focusing on reptiles and amphibians as pets. It showed two people trying to smuggle reptiles from Sweden to Norway. They was stopped and the reptiles they smuggled, was confiscated.

What happened after the television documentary was shown, was that their house in Norway was ransacked. In the house the police found 30 snakes, 16 lizards, and 2 frogs, a total of 48 animals. It was the most reptiles confiscated from a house in Norway ever. The good news is that the animals ended up in the Kristiansand Zoo in stead of being killed.

It is not possible to watch the television documentary online without paying to the TV company. But you can watch a similar, free documentary online on Youtube called "Slanger i paradis". The only disatvantage is that it is no english speaking there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkcPA9-TZTY

 

Article about the subject :
Wildlife Extra News - Norway says NO to pet reptile and amphibian trade

 

VC I read the report you pointed us too, i see it has the usual comments from anti animal keeper Clifford Warwick yet again decrying people keeping exotics, until he retired, he was an animal dealer who supplied a lot of people in different herp societies with reptiles etc.
Now he isn't directly involved he wants the exotic animal keeping hobby stopped,I wonder why he didn't think that when he was making his money out of it.

The point to remember with the anti animal keepers they start with something a lot of people don't like/aren't interested in (herps) or feel strongly about (caged birds) then move on drip by drip until no one can keep any thing and all zoo's must close and (maybe) give them the animals to look after

 

After the terrible accident in Canada where two children was killed by an african rock python, have the reptile keeping case gotten much attention.

Some sources say that there are over 35000 snakes in Norway. A report say that in Norway there are 10 000 kingpythons, 6000 kingboas, 5000 carpet pythons, 1000 green three pythons, 1000 tiger pythons, 500 garden tree boas and 500 rainbow boas in norwegian homes. It does not stand in the report, but I would guess that there are also over 5000 cornsnakes and milksnakes in Norway. Although the case have gotten much more attention, the athorithies still do not want to legalise them.

 

I'm just going to clear up a few things in this thread

First of, the herptile-ban was introduced in 1976 along whit several other bans, as it at that time was very little info on keeping herptiles available in Norway, which is very understandable. We take it for granted nowadays when every piece of info is readily available on the internet. Most of the reptiles in Norway before the ban was kept in poor conditions, I have seen setups with grass snakes, terrapins, adders, and caimans all together in the same enclosure, and that was fine then...

Since then the people who are passionate about this have been working on removing this ban, as the reason it was introduced in the first place is now not a problem anymore. Unfortunately it is a very hard battle to fight, the things we go against are irrational snake phobias, powerful and lobbying animal rights groups who are spreading untrue facts about herptile keeping, and ministers with personal snake fears who do not listen to reason.

A non-profit organization has been working a few years on a proposal for a list of herptiles to be legalized, the list started as 32 species of reptiles and amphibians which was both normal in the pet trade and easy to keep in captivity. The list was reviewed by six professional associations and all of them sent the list forward with positivity, and proposed a change of law. They also collaborated some changes and the list ended up with 18 species. Which are as follows:

Lizards:
Spiny-tailed monitor - Varanus acanthurus
Crested gecko - Correlophus ciliatus
Leopard gecko - Eublepharis macularius
Bearded dragon - Pogona vitticeps
Giant day gecko - Phelsuma grandis

Turtles/tortoises:
Hermann's tortoise - Testudo hermanni
Chinese pond turtle - Chinemys reevesi
Red-footed tortoise - Geochelone carbonaria

Snakes:
Green tree python - Morelia viridis
Boa constrictor - Boa constrictor
Ball python - Python regius
Kingsnake - Lampropeltis getula
Cornsnake - Pantherophis guttatus
Milksnake - Lampropeltis triangulum
Rainbow boa - Epicrates cenchria
Carpet python - Morelia spilota

Amphibians:
Argentine horned frog - Ceratophrys ornata
White’s tree frog - Litoria caerulea

A perfectly reasonable list of species, and everything was ready, every professional association had given it a clear signal and it was up to the Minister of Agriculture and Food to decide whether to keep the ban or to follow the recommendations of the associations who study these things.

Well, he didn't like snakes, so he said no. Effectively destroying years of hard work from several dedicated groups

But there is a new minister now, along with a new government, so hopefully we can get this case up and rolling again.

Also, this ban only regulate private captive herptiles. The zoos can keep reptiles, they just need to be qualified as with every other animal, which is good in my opinion.

Not quite right, they were not stopped on the border, got into Norway just fine. The documentary had nothing to do with them being caugth, the police had received tips about the reptiles already in Norway prior to the documentary.

Funny thing about this in Norway, because of the ban, almost all of the herptiles kept in Norway are being kept by true enthusiasts, and thereby herptiles in Norway are most likely the group of animals being kept in the best conditions. Every other animal group can be bought by anyone, and is bought by anyone. Often ending up in a home where it is not taken care of properly, which is quite sad. In my opinion all animals in captivity in Norway should be held by strict rules on care and housing, for example by having to obtain a permit for the animal you want to keep.

The green iguana is not on the list of several reasons, not that it is dangerous (although they do have sharp claws and sharp teeth, they can certainly do some damage, I have seen iguana bites, they are not a pretty sight). It has more to do with the iguana compared to other reptiles, seeing as this list is quite short, every reptile can not be on the list, and iguanas are not for everyone. They require a very large enclosure, and get quite large (handling an adult green iguana who is not tame is not easy). So it has more to do with other reptiles that are more suitable.

As for the sliders, yes, they can (and do) survive winters in Norway. There are several cases of sliders being tossed outside when they get to big for the owners, or they grow tired of the turtles, and they have survived winters in Norway.

The spiny-tailed monitor is the most common of the monitors and not rare in the trade at all, so I see no problem there really.

As it turned out (and came as no shock to me really) the python did not kill those children, that story had more holes than a swiss cheese. It was infact a murder, but this never got out to the media as it isn't exciting enough... quite the world we live in right?

I read that report (came out in 2009 i believe) and found it had several flaws, I know the illegal marked in Norway quite well and some of those figures are way off, not that it matters that much.

Now lets see, was that all...

Yes, by the way, as with other animals in captivity for example marmosets, if we had a functioning system with permits and such I could see a possibility of those in captivity, but the way it works now, no way. To let anyone and everyone buy marmosets at the pet store would be catastrophic...

 

Quote Varanidae: I'm just going to clear up a few things in this thread

Thanks for correcting my mistakes about the reptile law, reptiles and husbandry itself. (I am only 15 years old, so I have much to learn though. But we do nevertheless agree about the basic principle that it should be legal to hold reptiles and amphibians in Norway.

I personally have not heard anything of why that stupid law was enacted, and offically no reason have been given. But I assume that it was because they were hard to keep at the time, and that was the main reason it was done.

Unfortunately I do not think that just because there's a new government it will change this situation. The new agricultural minister Sylvi Listhaug that is controlling the ministry of agriculture, food and animal affairs have done to much stupid things in the past to be taken seriously. But we can allways hope.

I know that zoos can hold reptiles if they want, and if they are granted an appplication from the goverment, but I have read some place that if a zoo in Norway is going to hold reptiles they have to register them to the authorities and count them for every new one they get.

Quote Varanidae: Not quite right, they were not stopped on the border, got into Norway just fine. The documentary had nothing to do with them being caugth, the police had received tips about the reptiles already in Norway prior to the documentary.

Okay but my point was still clear in the first post.

And I do not mean that every person should be allowed to own a marmoset. I just said that maybe 90 percent of people are not able to cope with their needs, but that does not mean that the 10 percent that can hold marmosets perfectly well should be prevented from doing so. The biggest problem of holding marmosets is their diet, they have to eat lots of vitamins. But again if they are kept correctly I see no problem with it. Some people have held their marmosets as good as many zoos, and they are the only primates I can think of being held as "pets". But I do wholeheartedly agree that with a system of permits and licences it can be possible.

But then over to reptiles again. I believe that in Norway they should first legalise every single of the animal species written in the herp positive list. Then they should wait maybe three years to the market have stabilized. Then they should legalise all reptile and amphibian species completely, except the very large snakes, venomus snakes, monitors and croccodilians. These dangerous animals should it also be possible to own, but you would have to take a husbandry course first, the government would have to see your experience with reptiles, and they would have to see that your enclosures would fit to the reptiles needs. When all these matters were done you would be granted a reptile license for dangerous animals. The government should also offer courses for other types of reptiles. I also think that it should be banned to hold wild caught reptiles and amphibians.

Anyway it is interesting to finally have another norwegian on board that knows much about this subject and reptiles in general. Can I ask, do you keep any herps your self illegaly ? What reptiles or ampibians have you seen being kept illegaly by others ?

 

Sylvi Listhaug has been in a negative light in the media lately yes, but Trygve Slagsvold Vedum (former minister) did a lot of things the general population didn't agree with, as well as saying no to the list. They can pretty much do as they please. There has been a few very well written letters sent to her recently from the reptile community, and she has said she would like to remove laws and regulations without any reason to them. And she has a better view on many of the cases Vedum didn't. Time will tell.

Marmosets are not all that hard to care for in captivity, if you're dedicated and know what you're doing. By all means, if you have the capability to properly care for a herd of elephants I think you should be able to. (maybe a bit far, but ) As long as there are regulations and matters of controlling it, not just the individual care/keeper, but as a whole. If this is not the case, then a total ban on marmosets is better, for the marmosets, which are the ones who suffers. I will not die from the lack of reptiles in my house.

As for the zoos, and with all the animals in the zoo. The zookeepers keep a daily log of what is happening at the zoo; deaths, births, new additions, sickness, medical treatments, and so on. This is then sent to the Norwegian Food Safety Authority once a year.

And the permits is so that they can have better control. If the zoo makes an exhibit for a specific animal they get a permit for that animal to be kept there, and how many individuals can be kept in the exhibit, this is so they can't just cram a load of animals in any enclosure.

Your plan sounds okay, but what do you think about venomous snakes? Should every hospital be equipped with every antivenin, that would be expensive as they expire. If not, then it is up to the owner to take the risk? Then what if the snake escapes and bites the neighbor? Not much point in discussing it really, venomous snakes will never be legal in Norway

And no, I do not keep any herptiles myself, being in the zoo-business it would not be wise for me to keep them illegally, but I know a large amount of the community and market. Hehe, I have seen pretty much what there is to see, most are serious enthusiasts with a lot of knowledge, each with its own interest-field and specific knowledge, too bad they need to hide what they know and love.

 

Thanks for your views and comments Varanidae.

I think that when and if venomous snakes are becoming legal in Norway every hospital should have antivenom. The hospitals would have to get antivenom from a special place where they would milk the snakes. But I to think it is very unlikely that venomous snakes ever will become legal in Norway.

 

No captive venomous snakes here please. Amateur hobbyists tend to get bit by them all over the world... in Norway, reptiles should belong to safe species.

 

I have forgotten to say it, but a while ago the minister for agriculture,food and animal affairs Sylvi Listhaug have said no to legalise the private keeping of reptiles and amphipians in Norway. This has emerged from a press-relase, and in addition I sent an e-mail to the government before the press-relase where she said that it defineatly would not be legalised. Nevertheless the government have recently legalised segways (something that have been banned in Norway for a long time). Also they plan to legalise proffesional boxing, and poker tournaments and the sale of licorice pipes (that sure was about time since Norway is one of the few countries in the world where these things are banned). It looks like the Norwegian Conservative government prioritizes the right things.

 

How exactly is this defined in the law in Norway? Do they have a clear definition of what is an "exotic mammal" (any non-domestic, non-native species?) or do they have a list of legal/illegal species, similar to e.g. neighbouring Denmark (list under Bilag 1). Some of the species that are illegal to keep and transfer to privates in Denmark are rather logical, like platypus, but others are perhaps less so, including all non-domesticated hoofed animals.

Would it be legal to keep the more unusual domesticated species (e.g. camel, llama, ferret) in Norway?

 

They dont have a clear definiton of what an exotic mammal is. But effectively the species that are legal to own are a few small mammal species. Hamsters, guinea pigs, rats, rabbits, mice, gerbils, chinchillas, ferrets and even degus are legal to own. Exotic ungulates that are legal are reindeer, red deer, llamas and alpacas. Bengal cats, silver foxes and minks used for the fur trade are also legal. However you cant keep any other rodents, ungulates, primates, marsupials, carnivores, insectivores or other "exotic mammals".

 

Same because if any escaped majorty of them would freeze to death

 

Have you thought of moving to a country where herptiles can lawfully be kept as pets

 

Yes, actually I have. But we will see what it turns out to when I get adult.

 

As an iguana owner (one I got as a gift for my 15th birthday lived 14 years and one subadult right now), I disagree about them being dangerous. They can certainly become socialized, but they are large and capable of inflicting a lot of damage.

To boot, males go through a very lengthy breeding season. During this time they fear virtually nothing and will charge, bite, and whip any perceived threat to their territory no matter how large. Don't let the vegetarian diet fool you. Those teeth can rip and tear just fine.

 

I believe you can apply for an animal like a terrapin if you have allergies in Norway.
Any exotic pets (reptiles, amphibians, primates etc.) are usually confiscated and end up in Oslo's 'Reptilpark'.
This law has been made probably due to people not knowing how to care for such species and in some places in Norway (not all), it can be cold, however you are allowed to keep reptiles in other northern places.

 

I think it's a bit more complex, and the local climate plays only a minor role in this.
Believe it or not, but some people can't stand the thought of other people keeping animals. They might grudgingly tolerate people keeping cats, dogs, horses and fluffy bunnies (due to this being backed up by the majority of the public, and you don't want to antagonize that kind of lobby), growl more or less loudly at farm animal husbandry (but since this is a vast industry with political ties, they have some mighty foes there), but when it comes to "exotic" pets, in particular reptiles, now that's where they are having a field day! Only very few people, who are often regarded as oddballs and freeks, keep such animals in most societies, and the economic or political influence of their little hobby or even profession is not worthy of mention. Just as in other parts of animal husbandry, however, among them you can also find quite a bunch who do, due to ignorance, stupidity etc., mistreat their animals, often with fatal consequences (for the animals). And unfortunately, a pet reptile, mistreated or not, is more likely to make the negative headlines than a pet guinea pig. So off we go! said the Norwegian government and let's make some concessions to said anti-pet naysayers so that they will vote for us at the next elections. And since Norwegian paper-shufflers, like all other paper-shufflers all over the world, like to do as little as possible and don't want to differentiate, they just banned the private husbandry of all reptile species in general, with the result of 150.000 or more reptiles being kept illegally in Norway, never seeing the vet even in the case of sickness due to being illegal. And since this is such a splendid idea, other European states are contemplating about adopting this brilliant idea of general species bans, without considering what to do with all those illegal pets once the ban is passed.

 

I know this is very late and I'm sorry, but I thought that some of you might like to know the final list of species that will be legalised.

Official List

The new laws will be put into practice 15th of august this year (3 days)