Hudson and Humphrey are not unfamiliar with each other. Winnipeg allowed its oldest seven bears to mix and match in groupings in order to better stimulate them. Humphrey was introduced to Hudson, Storm, Aurora and Kaska just months after arriving after he had already bonded with younger bears Blizzard and Star. The boys can clearly live together. If they choose not to house them together that's entirely a management decision not a problem with the bears being able to socialize with each other. Frankly both are so used to the presence of other bears they may be bored or lonely without at least on companion. In order to create more dynamics they should introduce the boys to their mom and aunt. Outside of breeding season the four would probably get along just fine. During breeding season they just need to prevent inbreeding. I still think the better choice would have been to adopt two year old twins Eli and York as social companions for Juno but apparently I'm wrong.
Zoo's like Toronto don't "adopt" animals from other zoo's. Eli and York would be either placed on loan, puchased, or donated (or hypothetically traded if there was something Winnipeg wanted from Toronto that they were willing to release)
Oh I know zoos don't adopt Hyak_II. I was being more flip then anything. My point was merely that Juno would have benefited more from even just one younger bear who she could learn to be a bear from. Because Eli and York have been together and were with their mom for the first year they know they are bears. Juno on the other hand has not had access to other bears and thus needs to learn how to socialize with others of her species in order to hopefully be comfortable with a male and one day mate and rear cubs on her own. It's why both of her brother's were sent away to Winnipeg. I would be equally pleased if Toronto decided to send Juno to Winnipeg to continue being reared with York and Eli who are the two cubs closest in age to her at any Canadian zoo. It's a pity we cannot send her south to join up with Columbus' cub Nora who just moved to Oregon and lost her role model bear Tasul just after introductions.
Is there any word on the rumor that was going around about Hudson and Humphrey eventually being sent off to European zoos?
I haven't heard anything on the rumor but its a reasonable guess that as surplus stock to the whole Canadian population of polar bears the zoo might try shipping them overseas. Keeping one or both boys in Canada was an okay idea before Juno was born. Juno being a potential breeding female makes her more valuable than her brothers. There are plenty of unrelated male bears to use for her mate, Yelle, Eddie, Henry, Storm, Blizzard, York and Eli. Part of me wont be surprised if older brother Ganuk and even Inukshuk himself might be being shopped around too. Though I think Inukshuk is far less likely as he is the only proven male in Canada. More cubs born to him could be shipped overseas perhaps helping to secure breeding stock for other species.
I'm somewhat interested in if Toronto Zoo decides to enact a trade, using Hudson and Humphrey. I just wonder what animal they would trade for, assuming they make a trade.
I don't know but there are a lot of possibilities. Could also be Kindia was part of an exchange for one or both boys and the EEP for polar bears is just figuring out where to send them or finalizing paper work. It did take us over a year to get Kindia to Canada, that I know of, could easily have been longer. And Toronto is also looking to pick up a pair of male scarlet ibises from Europe for breeding. Could be part of a larger deal involving several species. The zoo could also donate or sell them too. Doesn't necessarily mean a swap of species will occur. As is we have too many polar bears in Canada descending from Inukshuk. Over the next 2-5 years 4 more females will be maturing into potential breeders. At 20 bears already with only 5 institutions being able to house them space will be tight unless the US finally sees the light of day and starts accepting Canadian bears to replace their losses. Donating Hudson and Humphrey will still leave 18 polar bears with 3 bears descending from Inukshuk and the potential for more as Taiga is in a breeding situation. Just getting they boys out of Canada will be beneficial even if there is no financial or species related gains. And don't forget the zoo will begin seriously looking for homes for the lion cubs this winter as they wont be able to stay with the pride probably by spring depending on Fintan's tolerance of them and their behaviour towards him. Remember he is out numbered 4 to 1. The lion cubs are in a very similar situation to the polar bears. Good homes in Canada for them are in short supply (5 other zoos have their own prides with 4 litters born in the last two years). AZA zoos are very unlikely to take them and the SSP will not assist in placing them. That likely means homes overseas. The next while will probably bring lots and lots of discussions between Toronto and zoos in Europe and Japan. We will just have to wait and see what comes of it for all of the zoo's surplus stock that do not have the benefit of placement through an SSP. Frankly even those animals can be tricky to place... hence babirusa Muna who was to have gone to Florida over two years ago still being at the zoo.
@TZFan : I wish our government would see the light of day! (In a multitude of ways ) Unrelated breeding-age male bears are really what our population needs right now, and government restrictions are putting a chokehold on our breeding program.
And what makes it even stupider is that many of the bears are out of Canadian or European roots as is, so its not like your diluting a pure sub population anyway.
Oh with the exception of a few Alaskan born bears (Kalluk, Tatqiq, Kali and Qannik) the rest are as you pointed out Hyak_II Canadian or Russian. There is absolutely no effort on the part of the SSP to keep the bloodlines pure. In fact an obvious example of that is that San Diego Zoo is to breed Manitoba born orphan Chinook to Alaskan born Kalluk. Nothing ever happens with that pair but if purity of the lines were even a consideration that recommendation would not exist. Plus there is the interbreeding of Canadian and Russian lines. Only a handful of bears in the US are purely from one population or another. The bigger issue at play is the need for breeding age animals who can produce cubs. If the population in the US is to survive they need 6 cubs minimum every year from as many pairings as possible. Right now most of those animals who could be breeding are related to Aussie and his late mate Arki, 9 of 35 potential breeders (if looking at the whole population 13 of 67). And all that is without me tracing up the family tree. There are other pairs in the past who have multiple offspring in breeding situations. An infusion of new blood regardless of where its from is desperately needed if the US polar bear population is to survive, especially since so many of the bears are geriatric or sterlized non breeders.
@Hyak_II and @TZFan : your arguments are correct, of course, but the government isn't really concerned about mixing populations. The polar bear is protected by the Marine Mammal Protection Act as a "depleted species" and I believe may also be listed on the federal Endangered Species List (which assesses species differently than the IUCN, as it only cares about the US populations). As a result of that status, imports are only allowed if it will be beneficial to the wild population. As you can imagine, zoos have to make a convincing case that their captive population is somehow beneficial to helping the wild population, because convincing arguments can and are made against them. Polar bears are not the only marine mammal species affected by these laws, mind you; we're not even allowed to breed sea otters or manatees in captivity, and it makes importing other marine mammals quite difficult.
Nice overcast day, so I decided to head out to the zoo. The exhibits in the Australasia Pavilion are mostly under renovation. The reptiles on the reptile wall (in the Komodo Dragon area) are all off exhibit due to renovations. The large marsupial exhibit is under renovations as well, with the wombats alternating the smaller section. One thing worth noticing in the Australasia Pavilion was 2 Kookaburra in the caged bird section. I don’t remember hearing of another Kookaburra arriving to be with Karee, unless I missed it. I’ll post a picture later today or tomorrow. Polar Bears Juno and Humphrey were on exhibit today. Juno in the main pool yard and Humphrey being kept separate in the field yard. Juno acts much like her mother Aurora loving to be in the water. She was fun to watch. No word on Hudson and Humphrey’s future (Regarding the eventually European move), from a Keeper. Saw another Keeper at the Reindeer exhibit and asked her about the future of the exhibit after the last Reindeer dies, and she had no conclusive answer. But due to the nature of the Reindeer’s passing (a blood disease) chances are the exhibit won’t house another hoofstock species, as the exhibit is deemed contaminated. From the way she sounded, it’s possible the exhibit will remain empty for a while. Male River Otter probably won’t be coming anytime soon. I last mentioned that he had to be put in quarantine in Buffalo (I think that’s the zoo) after biting a Keeper when they were readying him for shipment to Toronto. Turns out, while in quarantine the export permit expired. So, permits need to be reapplied for, along with the fact that the main employee in charge of shipping animals is on maternity leave, and no word has been given to the Keeper by the replacement shipper. Just a series of unfortunate events. The last plan I heard from a Keeper regarding breeding was that we were going to receive 2 new females from Parc Safari, and we would send them 3 of ours. They were hoping this would happen over next spring and summer. Currently, that plan is on hold, and will probably be scrapped. No reason on why was given by the Keeper. Noticed that male Zebra Jake was roaming around in the Kudu exhibit. He seemed energetic.
There was a male Kookaburra due in from Fresno as of the last ssp. I was thrilled because Karee is the number one female kookaburra. Once he is old enough hopefully they will breed. Sucks about the reindeer exhibit being a no go for hoofstock. That eliminates reindeer, caribou, moose, muskox, and dall sheep. The only option left then is to completely remodel the area.... oh maybe we will get wolverines!!! But I would just as happily except the lynx moving in a big exhibit there. What a pity another potential year of Talise's breeding will be wasted all because someone in Buffalo put their hands where they shouldn't have. I was so hoping for otter pups this spring. Question about the breeding and Parc Safari thing... ummm you mean cheetahs right? If not what species are you referring too. I want zebra Leia to leave so Jake can get back in with Tori and Lori. Or move Leia to the kudu and let Jake breed. Favourite news you shared was the arrival of the Fresno kookaburra. Next task... finding out his name.
For those that don’t know, the new Master Plan was released today. And let me tell you, it’s is ambitious and offers big changes to the zoo’s future. If this proposal is accepted, these are just some of the changes we can expect. Areas of the zoo will be overhauled and renamed from their currently familiar names. Gone with Eurasia Wilds, Tundra Trek, Indo-Malaya, African Savanna, and the Canadian Domain. Instead we will see the Introduction of the Core Habitat Areas where our old areas will live on in the new areas named Across the Equator, Wilderness North, Tropical Americas, Carolinian Forest. Discovery Zone will remain. A little side track here, separate from the Core Habitat Area is the Welcome Area, which is basically the entrance of the zoo. It will undergo changes that will see improved drop off for TTC and school buss. There is also mention of a Zoo Shuttle for transport to the overflow parking area. Looks like there will be an addition of a restaurant, before entering the zoo (At least that’s what it looks like in the diagram). Also, part of this area is a new outdoor exhibit for the Canadian Otter, the first animal for visitors to see. Now, back to the Core Habitat Area. First area is Across the Equator. Big changes here. As far as I can tell this area encompasses Indo-Malaya and the African Savanna completely. Below are the major changes proposed: Just want to get this out of the way, pathways of all kinds will be altered throughout the entire zoo The Indian Rhino Exhibit will be transformed into Rhino Ridge, which will see more area for the Rhinos plus the addition of a family of Asian Small-Clawed Otters. This is proposed as a mixed species exhibit for the Rhinos and Otters Macaque Building and Malayan Woods building will both be removed Indo-Malayan Pavilion will be transformed in the Oceania Pavilion, which will focus on not only Indo-Malayan, but other South Pacific areas. Focus on Island Flora and Fauna. The Komodo Dragon will be relocated here from the Australasia Pavilion. They also want improved the Pavilion for more natural lighting Orangutan outdoor exhibit is still planned, named the Orangutan Forest Sumatran Tiger are labelled as phase out Gorilla outdoor exhibit will be redeveloped and expanded for better enrichment opportunities. Area will be called the Gorilla Forest The rest of the area will be referred to as the Pridelands, which is a redeveloped African Savanna. The area which looks (going off the map they provided) to include the Kudu, White Rhino and Zebra exhibit will be combined into a large mixed species exhibit, which includes White Rhinos, Gazelle, Zebra and a younger male Giraffe. Housing will be expanded to accommodate animals during the winter months The Cheetah exhibit will be expanded to provide more space for a better lure system Expansion of the Lion exhibit to allow for a large social pride, as well as a bachelor group, and rotational space for Hyena Development of an indoor-outdoor habitat for Hippos and visitors with underwater viewing and rotational shared grazing area with the Giraffe herd Establishment of Giraffe and Lion areas as mid-winter end-point destinations to shrink the space that visitors believe is open only to discover that there are no animals in the habitats and nothing is open Next section of the Core Habitat Area is the Wilderness North, which includes the Tundra Trek, Canadian Wilderness (Eurasia Wilds drive-through) and Asian Highlands (Currently Eurasia Wilds) Starting in the Tundra Trek, the Reindeer exhibit will be transformed into a shelter for Tundra Herds, whatever that means. This area will be expanded into the Mayan Temple Ruins. The Polar Bear exhibits will be increased in size and the Grizzly Bears will be placed in a currently empty lot, which is visible across the ravine when entering/exiting the Eurasia Wilds. The plan is to have 2 exhibits for the Grizzlies, much like the Polar Bears. Grizzly exhibit will be visible from the Zoomobile. The Canadian Wilderness is a drive-through only accessible area, which will contain a variety of Conservation herds, I’m assuming they mean Bison, and Moose. Not much else is given about this area. Asian Highlands will have a denser population of animals, focusing on Canadian, Manchurian and Himalayan species. Map getting a little wonky, because they mapped the new design over an old map, but it looks like we’ll see the following: Big Horn Sheep, Mountain Goat, Snow Leopard, Lynx, Eagle & Owl, Cougar, Coyote, Bharal/Takin, Red Panda, Amur Tiger. The Australasia Pavilion will be transformed in to the Canada Pavilion to draw more attention to the Canada conservation efforts by the zoo. Some of the animals include Black-Footed Ferret, Blanding’s Turtle, Oregon Spotted Frog, Atlantic Salmon and Eastern Loggerhead Shrike. The Americas Pavilion will be transformed into the Tropical America’s Pavilion. Focus in more on South and Central American species, which could include the Tamarins and other small primates, Jaguar, Capybara, Flamingo, Reptiles, Insects, Rodents, etc. Animals selection will depend on space and conservation value of species. Next Core Habitat Area is the Carolinian Forest. This is basically an ambitious boardwalk installation in the core woods area of the zoo. No animals will be added, just a relaxing walk, among the trees. Raven’s Roost is an extension of this area to overlook the Rouge Valley. More coming later…
Last section of the Core Habitat Area is The Discovery Zone which will be expanded on to include the Carousel from the entrance of the zoo. An expansion water play area. And a new indoor 4-season (all year round) play area for children. There will be an addition of an interactive bug area for kids to learn about varies invertebrate New Wildlife Health Center is currently under construction, and to be honest, I skimmed that section. The Canadian Domain will be removed from a visitor access area and transformed into the Wild Woods. There will no longer be any animal habitats down there and be primarily used for special group use and conservation education. The Weston Pond will be maintained for the bird migration. There will also be overnight camp sites and off exhibit breeding area for herds. That's the main animals stuff. There's more information regarding other aspects of the zoo, that I'll look into later.
My thoughts on what I consider to be negative features of this new plan. The bad… 1) Removal of the Malayan woods/lion tailed macaque. The justification for this move is to provide more room for “natural flow through” of the Rouge Valley forest. That would be okay if the footprints of these two areas were large and therefore a substantial plot of forest that can be planted in their previous places. However these areas are quiet small and the amount of reforestation would be minimal at best and only serves to decrease the animal diversity of south Asian species it what will likely be an even more cramped space for species of this zoogeographic area. 2) Consolidation of Australasia with Indo-Malaya pavilion. There isn’t much room in the pavilion in my opinion to showcase the best examples of both zoogeographic areas without sacrificing the diversity of species displayed for both locations. For example if they were to try and fit tree kangaroos in the existing pavilion space I’d rather see that area go to Asian species (like say douc langurs) and just keep the tree kangaroo where it is. Also the Sumatran tigers will be phased out which is unfortunate as this is a very rare species that is adaptable to our winters and is popular with guests (tigers are iconic no matter what subspecies). 3) Renaming the savannah area “pridelands”. This one is kind of nitpicky but I’ll include it. The name is stupid and overdone. I understand the zoo is catering to a wide audience but the side of the zoo I most appreciated was the scientific, more serious aspect of it. So I’d rather not have a “disneyfied” name when “African Savannah” or “Kesio Park” would do just fine as it has. 4) Having a drive through in the Savannah exhibits. Do we really need this? This is the kind of attraction you’d expect at large wildlife parks like at San Diego or more locally the African Lion Safari. It comes off as gimmicky especially in light of having a world class drive through safari at African lion within driving distance of Toronto. Additionally it clashes with the natural look of the exhibits to have cars filled with guests and the associated pollution and roads/exhibit mods needed to accommodate this idea. Nothing like trying to take a nice naturalistic photo of a rhino or wildebeest with some tacky zebra striped jeep in the background spewing exhaust fumes with little Billy crying his eyes out in the back wigging out every animal on the Savannah. 5) As mentioned at gripe #2 the Australasian pavilion will be phased out in favour of the Canadian pavilion. Now I’m all for showcasing Canada’s species, hell I love that idea on its own but phasing out a whole zoogeographic section for this is detrimental to overall zoo diversity in my mind. Why not just build a new pavilion for Canadian species? It really doesn’t need to be that big. A pavilion filled with a few turtles here and there, a native snake or two, and some native fish does not have the same draw as an exotic pavilion of Australasian species no matter how you spin it conservation aside. Side note: my profession is conservation biology/restoration ecology so I have nothing against showcasing native species at risk and the ongoing conservation efforts associated with them I just think this is not the best way to do so. 6) Expansion of tundra herd animals into the Mayan temple. DUMB. The existing tundra herds area with its sole reindeer (not even a caribou!) has the distinction of being the worst aspect of the area and together with the arctic fox absence is kind of a massive write off on the whole tundra trek experience. Why expand what will likely be a caribou exhibit at best (likely no musk ox since phase outs) or reindeer exhibit at worst (which would be no net gain) into an area which SHOULD be expanded for the jaguars solely. Some people on here discussed the possibility of moving the jaguars to where the beavers and river otters currently dwell. Not for that idea, exhibit area too small. I’d rather that area be roofed and used a massive Amazonian aquarium with Amazon manatees alongside arapaima or alligator gar but this is for a later discussion. Getting rid of the waterfall would be sad as it’s been there for a long time and is kind of iconic. At least I hope they make it into an arctic river waterfall (here’s hoping for harbour seals at the bottom). 7) Getting rid of some of the Eurasian exhibits for Canadian species. Again the problem here is solely a diversity issue. Getting rid of species just to put old ones somewhere new or replace them with species that don’t equal or surpass the replaced species is no good. I mean come on a coyote exhibit? There are plenty of coywolves already in the valley and having some locked up while their neighbors run free (I’m sure some comb the zoo at night) seems kind of cruel. Also no conservation value. Zero. This species has become hyper abundant in Ontario at late and its effects on native species are starting to show possibly (when’s the last time you saw a groundhog?), a phenomenon we call “mesopredator release” now that Eastern wolves are largely gone and keep on going (coyotes are in fact partially to blame for this through hybridization). End of coyote rant (I actually quite like the species). Bring back dholes there instead (my fav canine) they’re pretty much equivocal in terms of needs only one is way more interesting and has a much higher conservation value. 8) Moving all Canadian Domain species up to the table lands. Large ungulates should remain in the valley with much expanded naturalistic exhibits. The monorail should be rebuilt/refurbished like the company requested (for free as we all know) and go through these large naturalistic areas which in my mind would really drive the point of local conservation and partnership home to newly educated guests. Part of the Rouge parks master plan is to include areas of tallgrass prairie within the valley and surrounding area (See Bob Hunter memorial park). Prairie habitats may seem out of place in the area but in reality they were once quiet a common feature due largely to aboriginal activity (controlled burns to create grazing areas for wild turkey, elk, and whitetail deer) and are or were home to many now rare species which depend on this habitat (bobwhite, bobolink, prairie warbler, prairie smoke flower, butler’s garter snake, the list goes way on). One of the primary methods for maintaining tallgrass prairie (which reverts back to scrubland than forest in the absence of certain ecological processes unlike the shortgrass prairie on the Great Plains which perpetually remains grassland due to poor soil and low water table) is conservation grazing where herbivore species keep shrubs and saplings at bay through continual low impact grazing. Elk, already present in the domain, are (or were more accurately) native to the area and together with bison (which would also be native had the Niagara gorge not prevented their dispersal, Buffalo NY just on the other side is in fact named after them) could help maintain a tallgrass prairie area on the zoo property and contribute positively to the diversity of the Rouge ecosystem overall. The moose could help showcase the extensive forests of the area and actually could be found in the region a long time ago. As I understand it moose make rather sensitive and difficult captives so a large secluded exhibit would prove ideal (the existing exhibit is just about the most secluded at the zoo be the farthest to the edge of an already disjunct section the domain). That’s pretty much my complaints with the plan. It does have a lot of good ideas (underwater hippo exhibit, consolidated savannah species, expanded Indian rhino, amur tigers back, orang outdoors). I also like the partnership with Parks Canada and the commitment to preserve and restore the natural integrity of the Rouge Valley as this is a place of interest for nature lovers like me in an area (whole province really) where developers have the whip hand and would surely see it destroyed in its entirety if it meant another inch depth in their deepening pockets. Seems like a lot of expensive previous projects will be gutted which is sad notwithstanding the waste of time and money (Café renos just for that building to be demolished or completely overhauled).
Overall, I am very impressed with this plan. I think 'ambitious' is a good word to describe it cypher, I do not think that it is too far reaching or too grand of vision to be achieved though. One of the strengths is an overall focus on less walking for guests without seeing animals. "The goal will be to condense the walk but not the visitor experience to provide a series of 20-30 minute loops that can be linked together as a linear sequence for first-time visitors, or as a series of free-choice experiences to visit “old friends” by repeat visitors and members." While this might not strike many of us on here as being a dramatic change, I think this is a huge appeal for average guests and will serve to attract visitors and improve the visitor experience. Similarly, "Establishment of giraffe and lion areas as mid-winter end-point destinations to shrink the space that visitors believe is open – only to discover that there are no animals in the habitats and nothing is open." Once again, a little difference to me personally, but I think it will have a notable improvement for visitor experiences the winter. I am very encouraged to see mixed species habitats in the pride lands. I have been hoping for this, but have not been optimistic that the zoo would go in that direction. One of the strengths is that by rearranging the domains of the zoo, the plan provides a refreshed, updated feel for the zoo without adding a substantial amount of new animals. This has the potential to bring in a lot of visitors, emphasizing on the new layout as it will differ drastically from what they remember. Palorchestes, just in response to some of the points you made: 1) I do not think that either the Malayan woods or macaque exhibits are exceptionally well done exhibits that will be greatly missed. Yes it will be unfortunate if the zoo loses the clouded leopards among other species presently held there but I feel that both these exhibits are very dated. 2) You may be correct here, but unfortunately the plan is limited on the details of what animals will move and what will be phased out (more than likely due to the design phase of this portion still being 7 years away). While some diversity may be lost, there is also the potential for a vastly improved exhibits for many of the species. We will have to wait and see more detailed design plans before knowing for sure. 4) Where are you seeing the drive thru savanna exhibits? All I can find is the zoo mobile going through the ostrich/wildebeest enclosure, which would not be as dire as your example indicates. 6) I agree there is historic value to the waterfall, but I also agree with the plan noting the distance needed to travel to see this exhibit. I will miss the Malayan Temple, but I am all for new exhibits to the animals much closer to the Tropical Americas Pavilion. 8) I do not think there is much value continuing to keep exhibits in the domain. Guests are primarily driven down there now for the grizzlies, and maybe the lynx babies. Once the grizzlies are moved, even with the reopened monorail I cannot foresee many visitors making the trek down there to see anything.
Ah yes M30t you are right about the drive through. I guess I just saw the route through the wildebeest and thought of previous talk/rumors of a savanna drive through and got the idea in my head (there's been a lot to take in as of late!). I'm surprised so many people thick the Malayan woods is dated. I can understand for the clouded leopards that exhibit is small and has no outdoor area but the rest seems fine and serves as a useful overflow area for Asian species that otherwise couldn't be displayed elsewhere without replacement. I would at least say there isn't a need to tear the whole thing down. As for your thoughts on the monorail. I think it would see decent usage if the entrance was relocated close to the savanna loop (say right near the now closed African gift shop by the hyenas) and offered a low ride price. People a little tired from walking will likely appreciate a seated interlude into the valley complete with heating in the winter and air in the summer. When I went with my family a few weeks ago I was surprised to hear that the moose was one of the animals they most wanted to see. Maybe because as Canadians we have some mythical reverence for the animal but almost no one ever gets to see them. I personally think they are among the most interesting hoofstock.
I'm personally liking some of the proposed changes, assuming they are all accepted. There are a couple ideas that I see being scaled back, or even cut from the proposal, but that's just me not having faith in the zoo wanting to go through with those ideas. The best thing about this in my opinion is moving the animals out of the Canadian Domain. I only hear complaints about having to go down there. Plus I'm not fond of the current exhibit down there to begin with. Moving the animals to the Eurasian area is a positive in my book. So much wasted space in that area right now. Also excited about the mixed species proposals. I've been wanting this for years now. To possibly see White Rhino, Gazelle, Zebra, Giraffe and all together sounds awesome. Plus there were other mixed species exhibits that were mentioned that I'm interested in seeing. I'm surprised by the amount of Pavilion redevelopment in the overall plans. Didn't really expect to see that, yet I'm very interested.
