Yeah I wish I had looked at the dates for the lions before griping too much. I went section by section through the plan. I wish they had included dates because I wouldn't have complained then. Given the whites ages by then hopefully the zoo is really thinking about the future and bringing in a tawny pride to actually contribute to lion conservation. Canada could really use some lions whose existence and breeding will do good for the population. As is only Calgary possesses two males who could contribute to their species in a meaningful way. All other zoos have whites or genetically unknown tawnys that should not be bred. The zoo really needs to remember its message is conservation in this case. Whites are cool and all but they do nothing to preserve the species. I never thought about ripping out the waterfall and pond in Indomalaya. I'd miss it. Not that it does a darn thing for exhibits but really helps the jungle feel. And yes there is a ton of wasted space in the pavilion but we do not know where things will have to sit based on keeper areas and off exhibit holding space. The orangs and gibbons holding would be the most difficult to get around. I can see the Tree Kangaroos staying but just not the other mammals from Australia. Well no that big gap between the projects.... No I still can't see even them staying unless they move immediately into the pavilion. If we give up the tree kangaroos and wombats we will not get them back. The populations are so small no one will want to give us new breeding stock when so many other American zoos want them. Look how long it took to replace Harrington. The zoo knew darn well he wasn't able to breed due to arthritis for years. So much valuable time breeding for Nokopo was lost while we begged the SSP to find her a suitable mate. With just 9 southern hairy nosed wombats in all of North America, located at just 4 zoos and most being related to Hamlet, it's very unlikely we would see Arthur back or a suitable mating pair. I however am a big fan of my Australia in the tiger exhibits idea. Someone crunch us some numbers and let me know what it will cost. I'll work on winning the lottery to make that happen... plus my African wild dogs. Maybe if I whimper and whine enough... A main draw at the Canadian pavilion I had always envisioned being the otters and beavers. Clearly that's not the case in this plan. With all the big species planned so far away it does leave little options for a draw. As cypher said maybe the wolverines in the roo exhibit. Black bears there could work. A swift fox exhibit would be good given that the pavilion will focus on Canadian conservation success stories. While Toronto has yet to participate in Swift fox recovery they could easily jump on board. Though I have my doubts many would consider a fox a main draw. It's gotta be something active, iconic and interesting. That's why the otters always worked for the Americas. I can honestly say without a big draw I could well skip over the pavilion most of the time just like I know I will skip over the insect building. I thought something was fishy about the water in the wolf exhibit. I can be oblivious to things but that's a big thing to miss for so long. I have and continue to think the core woulds is wasted space plain and simple. I know the whole conservation message but hear is the thing with the conversion of the domain back to its semi natural state do we really need to lose the northern tiger exhibit, macaque building and Malayan woods? Could that space not be better used for more money making animals? And frankly given the Canadian theming of the north site why not stick some exhibits in the woods but try to leave them natural. A red fox, coyote, porcupine, raccoon, deer exhibits would all blend in. Now the climbers would be trickier but it would be doable while keeping the woods yet not wasting space. The woods is not on the aerial photos of the site prior to construction. It was a field. It's a myth the zoo likes to put out there that they kept the core woods. I've always been willing to rip out at least the woods close to Austaliasia and the Americas to better use the space. But given the current plans... the treetop walk seems redundant when they plan to have a canopy walk in off the zipline south of the rhinos. Do a good job there. Have a path down to it free for all guests and leave the core woods be. I hate the raven's ridge. I get the whole rent lodges thing but they are already doing that in the domain and with the safari. Enough is enough. That space could easily be converted into more animal holdings. I wouldn't use it for new species but for a overflow mixed exhibit for the hoofstock. Surplus males could chill there. No they wouldn't be viewable from the path but they would be from the zoomobile. It wouldn't be a waste of the animals because you would easily be able to see all of them in the main exhibits. Just a nice way to house surplus on display. I'm guessing given the months that have elapsed since the proposal for the maglev group came in and the completion of the master plan I think it is not going to happen. If they were seriously considering it they could have inserted a page easily explaining it and marking it as a possibility just as they did with the education center. Since they didn't I would assume the deal is dead. Toronto probably wasn't the only one offered the deal and they could have dragged their heels too long. I'd like to bring up another gripe with the education center. I don't get its purpose. Lose nearly half a parking lot for what? A group meeting place? Its not even attached to the zoo at that point. If your going to rip out half a parking lot I have some suggestions. 1) Take one of your overflows and make it a multi level parking structure with solar panels on the roof. Now you reduce your footprint and get solar power making it green. 2) Dedicate that reclaimed space to animal exhibits. 3) Include your education center with gate facilities. Why cant the gift shop be two stories or space added over the restaurant? Anyone who has read my plans for what I would do to the zoo with unlimited funds... while remaining on site knows the main parking lot would be gone. It's completely reasonable to use a parking structure and use the land properly for bigger better exhibits. By doing that I can leave the core woods alone and still get everything I want with room to spare. Even looking at the current plans. Pull out the education center in the parking lot. Now reuse that half of the parking lot. Build a bigger better rhino, gaur, and blackbuck exhibit... through in some storks. A large pair of paddocks with a big winter barn for viewing. Now instead of keeping just a single pair of rhinos we can bring in more females and have more calves. San Diego Safari Park numbers here we come. Add another bridge across the water. Rip out the current rhino holding and slap up a new pavilion. Bing, bang, boom I get my Australian animals back with indoor and outdoor room to spare. This frees up space in Indomalaya now to keep the clouded leopards in the pavilion and maybe relocate the babirusa. Better use of space. Maybe instead of babirusa we punch out a wall along the tiger exhibit and have a indoor outdoor tapir exhibit and bring Tanuck home. Possibilities become endless when you free up parking. Just look at the size of the parking lot. I know, I know budget. But do we really need to waste millions on building cabins all over the place? Do we need a tundra hoofstock exhibit and demo of the temple when we cannot even house hoofstock there because they will die? Two tree top walks? Some could be cut to make room for other things.
I don't know whether this will help further anyones understanding in regards to the monorail proposal: I talked to one of the domain keepers on my last visit about it and he said because the zoo is city owned city rules apply to some of the development projects, specifically that when a company throws an offer out like this a certain amount of time must be given to allow potential competitors to offer their own proposals. Whether this is true or not and if it is how long a period the city allows for competition I do not know. Also, is there some kind of uncertainty regarding whether or not the Orangs with their new outdoor exhibit will be entirely held separately from the pavilion with their own indoor space? It certainly would free up room but I can't imagine their indoor area being very good if that's the case.
@Palorchestes What you're referring to with the monorail proposal is a Request for Proposal (RFP). In order to show fair competition, they do this kind of thing. The only thing is that I don't know when the closing date is for the RFP is/was. Council did vote in the majority to continue with the Maglev back when it was proposed, and there's been no word on it being scrapped, so to not see it in the master plan still doesn't make that much sense to me. Also, with the Orangs, there is no direct mention of the indoor exhibit, but from the look of the map, the holding in the new outdoor exhibit doesn't look sufficient for indoor viewing. Plus, as @TZFan said, closing off the Orangs during winter months just doesn't make sense.
The maglev proposal was cool when we hoped it might keep the domain in place but make it accessible again. Bringing it back with the domain converting to what it will be... I don't know if the idea is as appealing to me as it once was. I like the nostalgia of it and the views of the Rouge but is it really a necessity when the zoomobile will be made more functional and year round, and the aerial lift helping to transport people up to the savanna? I just don't know if its as valuable as it once seemed. I've come up with another expensive idea for Oceania. I have always hated the size of that pavilion. If your going to take the tigers away why not build an addition. Poke a whole in the tiger viewing area, build a glass atrium and plunk your Australian animals in there. Keep the wombats, wallabies, bettongs, and any other species you can get your hands on. Let the kookaburras fly free with cockatoos and any other bird the kookaburras wont be a threat to. Just a big open looped room with maybe some subdivided exhibits. The tree kangaroos could take over the hornbill exhibit... though I would be sad to see the hornbills go. Maybe space could be found for them elsewhere. With that plan we lose the grey kangaroos but keep a lot more with logical separation from the rest of the pavilion. If the new space were all glass then people going up the boardwalk could see them through the walls. Plus the addition to the pavilion would mean the zoo still has all of the space it did before for Indomalayan stock. I would still prefer to see the Clouded leopards be moved in here too.
When looking at the master plan map, the monorail can technically still be put in. It's just a matter if it's worth it. Monetary wise, the original proposal saw no money needed from the zoo, plus maintenance would be covered for the first 5 years. That's great and all, but the larger factor her is, would people use it if animals aren't the main draw on the ride. going through the Wild Woods (Domain) will be primarily for educational purposes on conservation efforts, and possible see some of the off exhibit breeding holdings. If anything, the zoo can use those first 5 years as a trail to see if people are willing to use the Maglev. I don't really see the harm, especially if it won't hurt the zoo's bottom line. @TZFan, that idea for slapping a atrium over the current Tiger exhibit to allow the Marsupials outdoors is an awesome idea. Frees up room indoors and keep all the animals. Very smart idea.
@cypher, I do stumble across some good ideas now and then. Problem is I don't have the funds to donate to the zoo under the stipulation they do as I say. Really need to work on that winning the lottery thing because I highly doubt I will ever come up with a million dollar idea to capitalize on.
As promised research about Asian Small Clawed otters. As per the Otter care manual Asian small clawed otters can be displayed with barbirusa, binturong, black hornbills, butterflies, peafowl, gibbons, giant hornbill, muntjac, Prevost squirrels, proboscis monkeys, slender-nose crocodiles, giant Asian squirrels, and Rodriguez fruit bats. When they do mix otters with other species they try to focus on species that are interested in using different parts of the exhibit than the otters do. I for one would love to see the otters in with the babirusa. If they need a place to put the hornbills lets try them out in the rhino house. Just trim those flight feathers. Jonah would be a problem because he's aggressive but that's the same behavioural reason he has never been given a mate. It's abnormal behaviour.
The diversity of mix species for ASC otters is surprising. I can't help but feel if a poor Prevost squirrel lets its guard down it would end up eaten. Crocs are an odd choice as otters have a tendency to hound them in the wild and I would think would prove pretty annoying to the more chilled out crocodiles with all their running around and associated otter mischief. This is kinda related: has anyone seen the Indian rhino or now absent tapir use their indoor water features? I've seen video of both species using them from the 1998 VHS "The Metro Toronto Zoo" (love this movie, wish I could find it as a literally rented it constantly from the local library as a young lad). Speaking of Prevots squirrel I miss that species in Indo-malaya. For a rodent they're actually very beautiful and unique. Can't imagine housing them is too hard, perhaps they're hard to acquire or maybe the zoo just doesn't want them. I believe there is a wrinkled hornbill in their previous exhibit.
How otters are housed with other animals is usually very carefully considered. Food dishes are placed far out of reach of the otters to prevent them from stealing. Plenty of entertainment is needed to keep them from being little pests. All of the species I listed have been tried and tested in the past with minimal to no aggression. They had been tried with water monitors as well but the experiment ended poorly. Just because the list I provided above is AZA, otter specific choices for mixed compatibility does not mean it prohibits Toronto from trying something else. Where they might want to put them may prevent the SSP from lending a breeding pair if they think the otters may be in danger but it may not. I just don't see Toronto going for an unapproved pairing as the zoo tends to lack an innovative mindset when it comes to mixed species exhibits. One only needs to look at the current savanna to see that lack of forward thinking. They used to have a mixed species paddock with zebra, rhino, ostrich, gazelles or impala (I cannot recall which because I was a kid at the time) and possibly wildebeest or gemsbok (I feel like a grey animal besides the rhino was in there). Then because a rhino killed a zebra they stopped having the rhino in the mix and when the savanna was redesigned everyone was separated. And this was at a time when other zoos were beginning to build their mega savanna exhibits with as much mixing and matching as possible. I think the the prevost squirrel the zoo just didn't want them. They are an SSP supported species with a recommendation to grow the population through births and if possible imports. If the zoo wanted them I'm quite confident the SSP would have happily provided them unless the exhibit was considered substandard.
I mentioned previously that the Basel Zoo (Zoo Basel) in Switzerland has a pretty large exhibit with Indian Rhinos and Asian Small-Clawed Otters. The exhibit also has Muntjac mixed with them as well. They seem to have no problems with the variety of animals being together, with the Otter and Rhino even sharing the watering hole.
For those interested I found another version of the otter care manual online that you can view. Just thought some of you might like to see the thought that goes into caring for all animals at the zoo. Each manual has different information but they generally follow the same flow and have the same issues addressed. http://www.otterspecialistgroup.org...OCT_version_of_otter_care_manual_V3_Dec09.pdf
Went to the zoo today. Spoke with some Keepers and noticed a few things here and there. Saw Red Panda Ralphie climbing one of the trees in the exhibit. Usually, I just see him up there not moving around. That it was pretty interesting. The male Camel calf has a name, and has had it for a while. Keeper told me that he was named shortly after birth, but for whatever reason, the name was never posted on any social media feeds. His name…Jamarcus. Apparently, he’s named after a character from a movie, which the Keeper couldn’t exactly remember, but I suspect the movie is The Watch. In the Tree Kangaroo exhibit, I noticed a plaque with a little bio on Tree Kangaroo Collins. Seemed pretty neat. I’ll post a picture later. In Australasia, the Reptiles were being brought back to be put back in the renovated exhibits. The exhibit with the Red Bellied Short Neck Turtle and Black Tree Monitor is still under renovations. Everything else should be back on exhibit by the end of this week the latest. Renovations in the Marsupial exhibit is also complete. Nothing major was done. Just some touch-ups and cleanup. Couldn’t find a Keeper that knew the male Kookaburra’s name. The one Keeper I did speak to happen to be one of the Keepers that didn’t handle the Kookaburras. Hopefully I can get that name next time. Didn’t realize the zoo still had the Blue Faced Honeyeater in Australasia. I almost never see her nowadays. Spoke with the Keeper after the Polar Bear feeding, which was a pretty informative chat, due to lack of interruptions from other visitors. In terms of the Fox exhibit, the majority of Keepers would like to see the return of Foxes. But there is also a discussion of using the exhibit for the Lynx, as in, bringing up male Lynx Ryan from the Domain. When Ember is ready to breed again, the female cubs will be brought down and Ryan will go back to the Domain with Ember. This will likely not happen due to the exhibit needing to be retrofitted for holding Lynx, which requires a budgetary signoff by the zoo council. Keep in mind this plan has been in consideration before the new Master Plan. The Wolf situation is a complex one, in terms of cubs, due to a number of factors. When they were in the Domain male Chinook favoured female Dora, who was not the alpha female. Vera was the alpha female. It is entirely possible, but not confirmed, that Chinook bred Dora and Vera killed the cubs, if any were born. That’s just part of the dynamic of the alpha females. They don’t want the alpha male breeding with others. During their stay in the Tundra Trek there’s been a change in hierarchy. Dora now seems to be the more dominate female, and Chinook still seems to prefer her. Keepers are starting to collect fecal matter, so when breeding season starts in January/February Keepers will have an idea of what’s going on hormonally with the females. If there are no cubs in the next 2 or so years Chinook will be checked, to see if he can produce cubs. If not, they’ll look into getting a new breeding male, and possibly new females. There was talk of at least one of the Polar Bear boys (Hudson or Humphrey) being sent to a new facility that is being built in a Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway, Sweden) country. But there was a hiccup in the facility sending their current male away, so everything is on hold. Also, it wasn’t fully made clear whether Hudson and Humphrey would have been sent there, or just one of them. But as of right now, they’ll be sticking around for a while. Update on the Polar Bear boys for those interested. Hudson is pretty much fully grown, weight wise, weighing around 1,100-1,200 lbs. He looks very much like his father Inukshuk. Humphrey is around 800 lbs which is around the weight of mother Aurora and aunt Nikita, who are both on the heavier side for a female. I never knew this but Hudson is the earliest recorded Polar Bear birth in captivity, being born October 11, 2011. Also spoke to the Keeper about the Reindeer situation. The disease (can’t remember the name he told me) that killed off the herd also killed out the Elk heard, which is why there are only 2 left (which are brother and sister). It’s a disease that primarily attacks deer species. It’s transmitted through insect bites, mainly ticks. The disease came up from the United States via White-Tailed Deer and wiped up large populations of deer species in the wild and captivity. Only recently have they found a way to combat the disease, with one of the vets at the zoo being a leading focus in the fight. Anyways, getting more Reindeer, or Elk, is very unlikely unless they are already carrying the disease, since the zoo has a handle on managing the disease. This managing is the reason Snowy (lone female Reindeer) is still alive. To decontaminate the soil the first 2 layers of the topsoil needs to be replaced, but that doesn’t guarantee that it won’t come back. Now from what I understand about this particular disease, it’s only attacking the deer species, which is why the Bison are doing fine, yet the Moose are susceptible. This leads me to believe that Musk Ox is a future possibility as seen in the master plan. While discussing the master plan with the Keeper, which they didn’t get a chance to read fully, but got the highlights, they mentioned that there are certain reasons the hill going down to the Domain never had more exhibits. This is because, as we all know, the zoo sits in the Rouge Valley. So, those empty spaces between exhibits (which the Keeper would’ve like to see filled with Bobcat, Skunk, Red-Tailed Hawk and other Canadian species exhibits) is because that empty area belongs to the Rouge Valley, and not the zoo. To get permission to build on that land, the zoo needs to get Federal permission, which comes with a multitude of red tape that’ll take forever to get through. Current space with animal exhibits belongs to the zoo and can be built upon without going through red tape from the Federal government. This is why the Domain is as lousy as it is right now. To build anything outside of the current exhibits requires permission. This however doesn’t apply to the core woods, which the zoo seems to own. I never knew this, but a company once proposed to the zoo the building of an Aerial Gondola, much like the recent Maglev proposal. There would be no cost to the zoo, and the company building it would pay for everything. The Gondola would have brought visitors up and down the Domain hill, which Keepers end up doing during the summer for elderly and individuals with disabilities. The company wanted 90% of sales and would handle maintenance for a determined amount of time. It was basically a win-win for the zoo. So, what stopped the project from taking off? See my above point. Federal government red tape held the project off for so long that the company pulled the proposal. Makes me wonder if something similar has or will happen with the Maglev proposal. The Keeper was also disappointed to see the pushback of the Hippo exhibit, which a lot of Keepers want to see upgraded, right next to the outdoor Orangutan exhibit. Speaking of the Orangutans, went to the Keeper talk there, but didn’t get a chance to ask as many questions as I wanted due to other visitors asking questions and interrupting our discussion. But, from what I did get out of her, she and the rest of the Indo-Malaya Keepers are over the moon about the outdoor Orangutan exhibit being the next major project. I asked whether the Keepers had any input in design, and in the early stage (as in right now) they do. So, Keepers having been giving their input, hoping it won’t be cut from the final design. One thing that makes me very happy is that currently the design is planned to have an open viewing, i.e. a moat will separate visitors from the Orangs, much like the indoor exhibit. Now, this could change between now and the start of construction, but I’m hoping that it’s kept alive. The one down fall to having a moat viewing is that the Orangs will not being able to stay on exhibit over night, whereas a closed exhibit they could. But Keepers think the pros of an open viewing outweigh the cons. Didn’t get a chance to ask about her thoughts on the future Oceania Pavilion, or whether the Orangs will still have an indoor exhibit after the outdoor exhibit is complete. Hopefully next time.
Cypher, I'm glad I wasn't the only one on here to take advantage of the mild day and head to the zoo. I wonder if we passed each other at some point. Thanks for all the information. The moat for the outdoor orangutan exhibit makes my day. I really hope they stick with that plan. Fascinating to learn about the ownership and bureaucracy with the domain hill. It explains an awful lot about that area though.
@m30t, it's quite possible we walked right by each other without knowing it. The weather was just to good to pass up. Not too hot, not too cold, and overcast. Nearly perfect photography conditions. The lack of development in the Domain finally makes sense now. It's not the zoo didn't want to do anything, it's that they couldn't or tired with uneventful results.
Some positive news, the zoo recently started advertising a funding campaign to raise money to buy 2 Blood Pressure Monitors. 1 for the Gorillas and 1 for the Orangutans. Not sure when this campaign started, but it ended today. They needed to raise $3,500. As of this post they managed to raise $3,666. Pretty good considering that last week they were less than half way to their goal. Here's the link for those interested. There are also pages to make donations to other campaigns (Wildlife Healthcare Centre & Orangutan exhibit), although no deadline is listed for them on those pages. The Toronto Zoo - Toronto Zoo GivingZOOday - CanadaHelps
Went to the zoo yesterday, and I was surprised how quiet it was. At one point, I walked around the zoo for 2 hours without seeing another visitor. I want to bring up the Dr. Schofield Memorial Garden, which is sticking around in the Master Plan. This area needs something to make people want to walk through it. I understand that in the winter it’s bound to be empty due to weather, but even in the spring and summer there’s not much to offer. No flowers, as it is a garden, and no animals to see. I have seen a swan in the pool there, but that was only once out of many, many visits. I’m not the most knowledgeable in terms of different animals, but assuming the garden is to stay, what would you guy put there, whether it be small exhibits in the garden or free-roaming animals? For the first time, I saw the Galah fly a short distance from one branch to another. Interesting, because I remember it being report that he couldn’t fly. Best thing about it is that he posed for me afterwards. With almost no one around I was finally about the pucker down and get some clear, unencumbered, shots of River Otter Talise swimming in her exhibit. Took over 600 shots of her swimming around. Had to play around with my settings to get decent clarity. Hoping to post a picture or 2 later. 3 Cheetahs (Emma, Akeelah, Cleo) are back on exhibit together. For a couple of days only Emma was on exhibit. I believe the group of 3 are still on rotation with Tika, who goes on exhibit by herself. The White Lions were packed together on the second heated pad on the exhibit. For those that don’t know, the second heating pad is located in the second yard, down by the glass. Only my second time every seeing a Lion there.
That must have been nice to have the zoo all to yourself! I remember there were rumours before the memorial garden was built that a pheasant aviary would be added to that area, and I still think that should be done. Pheasants are perfect for a garden area and they don't take up too much space. I'm pretty sure the zoo still has Himalayan monals, which could just move there, or species like golden or Lady Amherst's pheasants should be pretty easy to acquire. It would be even better if the zoo could get an endangered species.
That's an interesting point to bring up on the memorial garden, cypher. I cannot recall ever walking through it as it really does not have anything to draw people in. I like your idea arcticwolf for the pheasant aviary. I think birds would be the best bet for that area. The only similar zoo exhibit that I can recall offhand is the Garden of the Senses at the Henry Doorly zoo in Omaha. They fill that area with birds, mostly macaws if I remember correctly. Macaws would not be the best fit with the geographic theme of the area here obviously.
Arcticwolf's idea is perfect. There is a long history of incorporating pheasants into oriental themed gardens since ancient times, they would go perfectly there. Species I would like to see would be any of the following: Lady Amherst's pheasant, golden pheasant (as Arcticwolf mentioned previously), koklass pheasant, Reeve's pheasant, copper pheasant, and Japanese green pheasant all of which fit into the Eurasian theme. Tragopans and monals would do well also, a combination of all three would be ideal. Does the Zoo still house himalayan monal and Temmincks's tragopan? I still see the sign for the monal in indo-malaya (not sure if there is a sign for the tragopan) but haven't seen this species in years and the tragopan is still listed under the Zoo's website's animal list. I remember there also used to be a golden pheasant in Indo-malaya where the outdoor exit to the gaur is.
