Welcome to the posting on the forum @Esox. Always good to see a new face around here. In terms of the Gorillas, I'm inclined to think you saw Sadiki and Nassir which each other. They're Charles boys, who have been separated from the main family troop for some time now. At this point, Sadiki looks like a full blown adult, and most people confuse him for Charles. For the Phased out species, I don't think there's an actual list, but going through the below thread would be your best option in see the coming and goings. Toronto Zoo Births, Deaths and Transfers 2021 [Toronto Zoo]
@Jefferson, no worries we all have brain farts with the animals. I once didnt pay attention to what I wrote and said we had Vancouver Island Marmosets. That got a good uproar going. Hey you never know whats in the wilds of Vancouver Island. Lol. @Esox welcome! Glad you finally decided to join the party. You have likely misidentified the gorillas you saw. No worries. We are happy to teach tips and tricks if you need to know. @Animal R AMAZING! is correct Charles only lives with the girls. You likely saw Sadiki and Nassir going at it. Typical for them. Sadiki is now an impressive silverback and Nassir is working to catch up. If you didnt see any of the girls then it was the boys and not Charles. If you did see the girls then you mistook Ngozi, Johari or Nneka for a younger male. I dont think you would mistake little Charlie. @Animals R AMAZING! they are not trying integration of the boys with Charles. He couldnt handle being with them. Sadiki and Nassir get to rowdy for the old man. He was being pummeled pretty good by Sadiki when they first did the separation. The girls even sided with Sadiki over Charles at one point and thats when the call was made to pull Sadiki and start separating Nassir to be his companion. Charles actually has the go ahead to breed Ngozi again in 2022 if the zoo wants. The moose were possible just out of view the exhibit is rather large compared to what you see. However it is also possible they were off display because there was some damage to the road along side their exhibit this summer when there was flooding. While repairs were done they could be working on flood mitigation measures which were planned. I just dont know if thats what was going on. Just as likely they were hiding in a less visible spot. The burrows is interesting because no one is exactly sure whats up with it. There was mention that they wanted to open the stairs back up into the pavilion. I cant recall the set up from my childhood well but the stairs must run from the meerkats down under to the burrows. I dont know why we need yet another entrance and exit to the pavilion but maybe its new fire codes who knows. Dolf keeps talking about a new filtration system in the Rainforest so I dont know maybe a new aquarium is going down there. Kinda glad to hear the naked mole rats moved and phase out wasnt completed as planned... at least yet. Did you by chance get a photo of the new set up? Lol good luck with the mandrill dreams. I'll join you but its unrealistic. You probably just caught them swapping out one group for the other. @cypher there is a phase out list you silly goose its the animal plan. Ill go see if I can find it.
Thanks for the welcomes, much appreciated. That may very well have been it, Sadiki and Nassir. One of the two looked larger and older than the other for sure if that helps. Thank you for the link too.
Unfortunately I took no photos. They wouldn't of been nice considering the setup. Much of the back room where the keepers work was visible. I'm not sure where else to post this, or if its been posted before, but here is a link to an old VHS video on the zoo from 1988. I used to CONSTANTLY rent this from my local library. Than they phased out VHS tapes and to me it was lost to time forever. Now its on YouTube in full. Quite the nostalgia blast. Please enjoy.
@Esox Sadiki is much older than Nassir. There's 4.5 years between them. Doesn't sound like much but massive difference in gorillas. They almost hit the cut off where Nassir wouldnt have been old enough to be separated from Ngozi and the family to be Sadiki's companion. It all depended on when Charles had enough of him and how old Nassir was at the time. They did all they could to keep the peace until he was good enough. I put that up a while ago on another thread I think a history one. I cant remember now. But never hurts to see the links a second time for new comers.
Ughhh Im so dumb... spent the last several minutes looking for the Animal Plan and forgot Animalman0314 summarized it for us and posted the link and here I am looking all over the zoos three threads and google. Toronto Zoo Animal Collection Plans [Toronto Zoo]
Careful about getting too excited @AJ the TZ Guy. The naked mole rats could still go at any point. The plan does say they go. They could just be in a temporary set up because they cant be shipped out right now due to Covid. I suppose it depends if their enclosure looks like a good enough til they go set up or something more elaborate that would indicate an investment was being made in them. I think we need to wait and see what happens in the next say year with them. The zoo did move the lion tailed macaques but they are still a phase out species. Don't want you getting all invested in what may be false hope because I know how much you love them. Why get your heart broken twice?
@Esox welcome here to ZooChat, great to have a fellow Toronto Zoo fan and goer. Great to hear the updates, glad you’re already giving updates and giving with them always appreciated from those of us who can’t visit often. I do hope the gorilla dispute ended, but I can only wonder if bachelor troops are still way to go? Anyways Great to have you here on the Chat.
Speaking of the orangutan construction, it got me thinking how a construction blog/ vlog would be cool (if there is progress to talk about lol). The Facebook lives and dolf’s Instagram posts are nice and all, but a more in-depth look behind the scenes would be nice too. Not just the orangs either but if there are other projects, put some more frequent updates on YouTube or Facebook. Just something that could let the public know what’s coming, and generate excitement.
@Akula, there is nothing wrong with bachelor groups. The boys are doing what is natural for young bachelors, testing each other. Remember at the end of the day if they were brothers in the wild one of them would become dominant and run the group with full breeding privileges and the other would either support him or have to find another group to take over. Nassir is just hitting that hormone surge for teen gorillas. Sadiki is the perfect one to put him back in his place. There is a lot of learning to be done at this phase for both of them if they are to mature and become strong leaders of their own troops which both most definitely will. Squabbles and dominance posturing which looks like squabbles without any real fighting is to be expected. The team knows how to handle it and they always have the option of physically separating the boys for a few hours to a few days if hormones are raging to the point a little alone time is best. Need to remember too if the zoo has taken Ngozi off birth control to prepare or actively try for a baby with Charles, the scent of a female in heat could send the boys a little crazy too. I don't think the zoo would be trying yet. Probably wont until mid to late summer 2022 depending on Charles health in hopes of a spring or summer 2023 baby. However they didn't time Nassir or Nneka very well so who knows. They could have been trying for baby this fall in hopes of 2022 spring or summer baby to really help drive recovery at the zoo next year. @GorillaFan15, I bet we will see more Facebook Lives coming as the orang exhibit takes more shape, especially as they can tie it in with Sekali's pregnancy updates. The hard part is that when they have done them in the past really all they have had to show us is the current exhibit, mock ups and construction equipment playing in dirt. There hasn't been any real development above the ground they can show off and say see what we are doing... there is nothing to really see. I'd suspect once the work can really pick up in the spring when it warms up we will see several Lives showing us the progress as the walls are up, as towers go in, maybe even a sneak peak at the first time one of them goes outside. I bet those things are coming. Sadly winter will slow progress to a crawl unless its a super warm winter.
Welcome to ZooChat @Esox! Thanks for the updates as well, that bit about the naked-mole rats was really interesting. Will have to see if you can still see them on my next visit
I’m just wondering, what species are the must sees? (Aside from Adira and Imani who I’m excited to see in person) Will be going to TZ this weekend, haven’t been to Toronto Zoo on foot for many years. And what are the current crowds like? Less crowded with the colder weather?
@Aelita I went friday and it was cold and very quiet. You are probably going to have a pretty quiet day compared to the summer. @Esox I made the exact same gorilla mistake a month or two ago. Sadiki is a big boy. I did see Charles in the day pen with the ladies last Friday. Of course he was hiding behind a pole and hard to see. @GorillaFan15 I agree, would love more updates on the construction. I think once things are a little bit more than moving dirt and putting poles and there are actual visible features to show off we will get more updates.
@Aelita I would've said if you were willing to make the trek down to the domain to go see those animals since in a recent members email they mentioned they would be closing the domain for.the season along with the temple but the date for that was Dec 2 so you would've just missed it. I figure it's a safety thing more than anything else, but I can't say I'm not disappointed. You should definitely try and see the orangs. They usually switch early in the afternoon so it's worth popping your head in once in the AM and once in the afternoon to see Budi or Puppe. Budi's grown a lot in the last few years and this may be your last chance to see Puppe. Really, you should try and see anybody who's set to leave soon. Penelope the pygmy hippo is the only one I can think of off the top of my head but someone else here will know better than me. Of course, stop by and see Mila. From the pictures I see of her she's growing fast. It's definitely less crowded in the off-season. A lot of people don't even know the zoo is open all year. Also a lot of animals you wouldn't expect love the colder weather, so it's nice to go and see them doing something different from what they do in the summer. The lions for sure are more active in the cold.
I just wrote out what I thought was an essay - but it all got deleted while I was trying to post, so this might just be a condensed version of it! I can take a photo of the set up for the naked mole rats the next time I'm at the zoo - but it's pretty limited (i.e. stuck behind the glass at the chameleon section). I wouldn't have known it was the naked mole rat exhibit if I didn't remember what it looked like downstairs from years back. I could be wrong (misremembering), but I believe it's also a smaller subset of the original set up. I was there on Saturday - and I skipped the Indo-Malay pavilion this time, but one of the keepers elsewhere in the zoo confirmed it was just Sekali that was pregnant. That doesn’t mean Ramai isn’t as well @Jefferson, maybe this keeper was just sticking the party line until it was announced. Other observations: Australasia – I didn’t watch the recent echidna Facebook live event – but does Annie share with the wombats? Both wombats were more active than usual while I was there and moving between the two “rooms” in that exhibit. After being asked for the 20th time by my son, I finally looked up the Komodo dragon’s name (thank you @TZFan for your naming list), so won points for that. After reading these posts – I tried to find the old lion fish tank – is it the little circle one where they now have the jelly fish babies? It looks pretty small. The lion fish was visible in the big tank and looked as happy as a lion fish can look. I did see six kangaroos out and about, and they were moving as a mob, so I wonder if they were just fed while I was there. Eurasia – Mila was on her own inside at the Amur tigers and Vasili and Mazyria were moving about in their respective outdoor enclosures (with the doors open). It took me longer than I’d like to admit to figure out why I thought Mazy’s name was Mazy, while @TZFan’s naming list had it as Mazyria… not a brilliant moment for me to figure out the abbreviation. I did speak to the Red Panda keeper who said Paprika would be out of quarantine in two weeks, and that Pemba would be another month which isn’t unexpected. It was a bit sad to see the big “animals off exhibit” sign by the snow leopards. Across the water (with the trees off the leaves) I saw the yaks for the first time from the walking path. I’ve only seen them once before from the zoomobile (and it was quickly at that). I could also see some sort of goat (mouflon?) in the drive-through area hovering by the fencing. I struggle to remember which is which, and tend to skip those exhibits. There were also 2-3 (can’t remember the exact number) of the horses out across the water. The animals in Tunda were very active, which isn’t that surprising. Juno was trying to get to treats frozen in an ice block by picking it up and smacking it, and crunching it with her teeth (which you could hear through the class – which was both interesting and alarming at the same time). The boys were playing together up on the hill. On our last visit two of the polar bears (maybe Nikita and Aurora?) were cuddling in the cave just off the pool. This time they were hanging out separately in the enclosure off the pool. I know that no one cares about the snow goose – but there are a lot more in the exhibit than usual this time (usually there is just the one?). Not sure why. We were only there 4 hours this time, so we skipped Americas and the Domain (which I am a fan of! Although with the grizzlies down for the winter – we might skip it a little more until spring), as well as the Indo-Malay pavilion. In Africa – we made our second visit to the penguins and the new exhibit looks nice. I thought I took a picture, but I must not have, so can next time. I struggle to call the zip ties (or similar) “branches”, for the penguins to build nests on their respective mats, but maybe they’re more durable than branches which would break. Both times they’ve had the interior doors open for them penguins to move in an out. All the carnivores were out. Fintan was putting on a show for the second visit in a row harassing one of the female lions, and the lone cheetah was very active in his(?) enclosure. Charles was out with the family in the main gorilla exhibit, although still looking pretty straggly. They have opened the walkways through the pavilion (I think since the vaccine mandate came out?), so you can see a lot more of the pygmy hippos, and the spoonbills and other birds. The red river hogs were outside again for the day. The giraffe house looks pretty good. On Saturday only Mstari and Amani were out together, but two weeks ago they had Kiko in with them. He was apparently in the back. Mstari looks pregnant (as much as I could tell when a giraffe looks pregnant), and apparently it’s going well. Someone asked if there was any word or movements on an Amani transfer – but nothing official yet. We walked through Indo-Malay on the way out. The tigers were out and about and pretty active. We skipped the pavilion, but did see Bucky in with the gibbons two weeks ago (which has already been reported). The rhino house looked in pretty good order. Two of the rhinos were still out in the exterior exhibit two weeks ago, but everyone was inside, with only one visible on Saturday. Also – not to be bitter, but after seven years of German (and the occasional Swiss/French/Scandinavian, Czech and Polish) Christmas Markets, the Holiday Market was a little underwhelming. Hopefully it still draws people into the Zoo, but as a die-hard Christmas Market fan, I only spent a couple minutes there. I recognised Dolf there (not this trip, but the last trip) while he was opening it, but I felt it might be a bit over the top to say “hi – I recognise you from LinkedIn and Facebook Live events”.
Glad you get a chance to go @Aelita! I dont know current crowds but it is always less crowded this time of year. Its largely too cold for the tiny tots to be out and its not a great time of year for field trips (if they are even currently allowed by school boards). That eliminates a lot of kids from the equation. Its a nice time to visit. The cold weather animals are usually more active and the pavilions are a nice place to warm up. Oh are you fully vaccinated? If not they wont let you in. You dont have to answer on here but just wanted to put that out there for you if you werent aware. In terms of must see... I think the gorillas and orangs are always on my list. You never know when the last time we might see Puppe or Charles will be given their advanced age. Cherish them when you can. The mix of the gibbons and babirusa is a fun dynamic winter exhibit in Indo. Wouldn't get to see the mix if you visited outside of winter because Bucky would be back in the rhino barn. If you have any attachment you may wish to say goodbye to the following animals due for new homes... Indian Rhino - Asha White Rhino - Theo Pygmy Hippo - Penelope River Hippos - Perky and Petal (though it is probably already too late in the year for any shot at seeing them out) Spider Monkey - Lucas (again probably too late) Tree Kangaroo - Puzzle (phase out to be completed in spring so I'd see her if I could to say goodbye to the species) New faces to meet... Mila the Amur tiger cub. If you havent been in years again gonna say gorillas for Charlie. Oh and giraffe calf Amari because I wouldnt be shocked if she left in the spring for Calgary. Nothing official on that yet but it would free up space when the new bundle of joy arrives. You might want to skip Eurasia mostly. Depends on what you like there. Clearly the red pandas and Amur tigers are musts but without a snow leopard to see doing that whole hike might not be worth it for camels, maybe a glimpse through brush at the P horse and yaks, tur and if you are lucky the last chamois (1-2). @Kalvin the domain is most definitely closed for safety. That hill is unfriendly enough in the summer. Add any risk of ice and its a potential death trap and law suit waiting to happen in the winter. The domain was literally the stupidest thing the zoo ever did. Yes the monorail existed but people would still use the hill and its been a problem since opening day. They could have developed the temple area up to be the domain and it would have fit right in. Not as much space but look at whats down there now. I dont think they need all the space they have. The coons could live in the Americas where the great horned owl is. Then you just need an exhibit for the cougar, grizzlies and you could try combining the bison and moose. 3 exhibits. I know the bald eagles is there too but its a phase out so why not just hold her in outreach with the other eagle or send her to a new home. I also would send the bull bison to another facility since we are only doing AI and embryo transfers.
@Zooer, if you can get a photo of the mole rats new set up cool. If not no biggie. My guess is its just temporary. Echidna Annie does indeed live with the wombats. They are chill with each other. You are welcome and I am glad the name list made you a hero to your son. Start memorizing it and you will become a rock star. Now if only I could figure out a good way to do a how to identify guide we would be set. I've tried several times and stopped. The lionfish exhibit is where the jelly babies are yes. They have modified it since the lionfish was last in it. 6 roos makes sense, Simon, Sydney (joey is still in the pouch), her son Gosia, Tori, her sons Melbourne and Mr. Partington. The old guard all passed within the last 2 years of covid. They were ancient to be fair. Lol, Zooer, we have all had those moments were we stand there trying desperately trying to figure out something that should be obvious. You are in good company. Makes us human. Now I havent been since last September but the goat you saw in there with the yaks could have been surplus male tur. When they brought the boys back for ill advised inbreeding they only brought 2 or 3. That must mean they left the other males in the drive thru. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Google tur and I bet thats what you saw. Could still have been male mouflon that might be separated out but I think they castrated all of them so there is no issue there. I doubt they would pull the last 2 barbary sheep from the mouflon as they have been part of the herd for so long and they are so elderly why put them in with scary new friends. Not that we dont care about the snow geese. We just care about everything else more. Lol. There should be three. We have parents Janis and Misty and oh what did they call the baby... Oh Ryan Gosling. The cheetah out is probably male Bakari. Hes the least valuable of the males and my guess is both girls are in the breeding center to hopefully produce spring cubs. There probably wont be official word on Amani moving until spring. They know where she should go. Since before Mstari and Kiko were even old enough to breed the plan has been female calves at Calgary and Toronto were to be swapped with each other. Now we are getting the raw end of the deal because I dont think Emarah is ever going to produce a healthy calf that survives. Statistics are not on her side. However this is nothing thats ever been said but I would love to see Kiko go to Calgary with their non breeding herd and we get Nabo in return. Nabo is super high ranking and a worthy mate for Mstari. After two calves Kiko can be retired from breeding he's not genetically valuable. If he hadn't been paired with Mstari he would be in a bachelor herd for life. Nabo could breed Mstari and Amani in 2 years and if the new calf is a female all the better breed her in 4 years. We would have quite the herd going. But again I have never heard anything like that is in the works. Just a personal thought all my own. The SSP may consider it if they have given up hope on Emarah. Lol you are entitled to your opinion on the Holiday Market. It does look a little meh. Maybe its meant to be meh. Maybe they would like it to be more traditional. The hard part is it was developed during covid. I think we could see it grow and evolve over time as we return to whatever normal will be in the post pandemic world. Honestly as long as it makes money for the zoo though thats all that really matters. Great run down of your day. Felt like I was right there with you. And glad my name list helped make your son's day.
Man oh man, I always forget about the Animal Plan. Good catch @TZFan Also, really enjoy the heavy discussion on here.
