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Unfair criticism of Melbourne and Werribee Zoos "ABC animals"

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Grant Rhino, 24 May 2020.

  1. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I completely agree with you:

    I visited Woodland Park Zoo last year and I think it's arguably the best city-based zoo I've ever been to (across 5 different continents).

    As for what you've said about larger mammal species subsidizing important conservation programs, this is exactly what Melbourne Zoo is already doing with smaller endangered species (Eastern barred bandicoot, Southern corroboree frog, mountain pygmy possum, orange bellied parrot, Tasmanian devil, helmeted honeyeater etc).

    And this is precisely the reason why I'm a big advocate for displaying large high profile species first and foremost in large zoos that can afford to do so.

    As for displaying birds, a large range of native birds already live wild at Melbourne Zoo (and Werribee Zoo) and this is why Zoos Victoria have less interest in displaying more birds.
     
  2. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Correct also its very unlikely they would ever want to add Snow Leopards and Red pandas due to the extreme heat that region can get.As for other species mentioned one can only do so much in 15 years starting out from nothing!
     
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  3. Yoshistar888

    Yoshistar888 Well-Known Member

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    Since your last visit the following species have departed or I never knew were in the collection and have never seen them signed.

    Squatter Pigeon
    Buff Banded Rail
    Red Collared Lorikeet
    Tinnmeh Grey Parrot
    Blue Fronted Amazon
    Razor Billed Cussarow
    Australian Brush Turkey


    Species gained since your last visit

    Orange Bellied Parrot (already present at Healesville and Werribee)
    Regent Honeyeater (Already present at Healesville)
     
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  4. kiwimuzz

    kiwimuzz Well-Known Member

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    Sadly much of the large mammal collection at Melbourne Zoo will not be around for much longer. (Solitary Malayan Tapair, solitary pygmy Hippo, Phillipines crocodile, aging and inbred peccaries - only ones in the region...) not to mention the Hippos at Werribee without a breeding male...
    I would have a greater appreciation of Melbourne Zoos collection if they had actually imported some large mammals in the last ten years. They are one of the better funded zoos in the region and yet their exotic collection is in decline. The IRA for importing hippos (both species) has been bogged down for years and at the rate it is going the the animals in MZ collection will be post reproductive or dead.
    I fully appreciate that large mammals ( the ABCs) can drive visitation, especially amongst children. I also understand that they are expensive to keep and to import into the country. If a small privately run zoo (Darling Downs) can import 10 zebra, 6 red handed tamarins, 2 imports of giant tortoise, red rumped agouti, and soon Sri Lanka leopard, (all off the top of my head) what is Melbourne Zoos excuse?
     
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  5. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    This is all true and more. @Grant Rhino do you still believe the criticism is unfair?. @kiwimuzz also Baboons from Poland, Lions from South Africa. Emperor Tamarins from Europe
     
    Last edited: 26 May 2020
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  6. toothlessjaws

    toothlessjaws Well-Known Member

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    And how is this the fault of Zoos Victoria?
     
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  7. toothlessjaws

    toothlessjaws Well-Known Member

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    Grant Rhino, I can't help but feel like you keep missing the point here. I don't think a single person on this forum has lamented the fact that Zoos Victoria (or any Australian zoo) keeps "big attraction" animals. What we are complaining about is the fact that they are shifting towards ONLY keeping big attraction animals.

    It's not about one vs the other.
     
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  8. kiwimuzz

    kiwimuzz Well-Known Member

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    Umm.... as the only holder of both species in the country and holding only single sex groups of both species i would have expected far more advocacy from Zoos Victoria to ensure the completion of the IRA and the eventual importation. (But this isn't only a failing of just Zoos Victoria. Taronga and Adelaide have the resources and industry clout to also advocate for Hippo importation )
     
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  9. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    With all due respect, I don't see why Melbourne Zoo needs an "excuse" for not importing every species of animal under the sun.

    However, if Melbourne Zoo really does need an excuse then I offer the following:

    1. Their excuse for not importing animals is that they already have animals. They don't need to import zebra because they already have zebra. They don't need to import tamarins because they already have tamarins. They don't need to import tortoises because they already have tortoises.

    Fair enough on the agoutis though - there is no excuse for not importing agoutis. But if this is the biggest problem with the zoo then that's a great problem to have...

    2. Darling Downs are GOING TO import Sri Lankan leopards - great, I applaud this. However, Melbourne Zoo have ALREADY imported snow leopards: a female called Mishka from the UK, and a male from Germany. These snow leopards have already bred and produced 3 cubs.

    Despite this, there is so much praise on this forum for DDZ because of what they are GOING TO DO (import leopards), yet at the same time, MZ have ALREADY imported 2 new snow leopards and BRED THEM.... and MZ are still being criticised for not importing animals.

    This is the type of double standard which is rife on this forum when it comes to MZ and WORZ. They have already done what DDZ are going to do, and while DDZ are being praised, MZ are being criticised.

    Maybe they should just import agoutis..... and red handed tamarins....
     
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  10. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Yes - I do think the criticism is unfair:

    It's very easy to see all of the great things the smaller zoos are doing because they have started with far less. However, most of the animals they are importing are the same species or very similar species to what the big zoos already have.

    The large state-run zoos already have more species (and more money) and I feel that they are being criticised far too much for what they are not doing, without the due acknowledgement for what they are doing and for what they have already done. Do the big zoos simply have to import 3 new species each and every year to keep people happy?

    As I just said earlier, DDZ are being praised because they are "going to" import Sri Lankan leopards, yet MZ have already imported snow leopards and bred them - where is the praise for this? This is just a complete double standard....
     
  11. toothlessjaws

    toothlessjaws Well-Known Member

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    How do you know this isn't happening?
     
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  12. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Trust me, I'm not missing the point - I simply don't agree with it:

    As I've said numerous times on this thread, I think that it is great to have a few small obscure species in zoos alongside the high profile species. I think this makes for a great point of difference in any zoo. A great case in point are the dusky leaf langurs at Adelaide Zoo or the silvery gibbons at Mogo.

    However,

    If a zoo simply keeps importing new obscure species constantly then they are either going to die out (if they are bachelor groups), get inbred (if they are the only group in the country), or breed - and then every single zoo in the country is going to have them and then ZooChatters will start viewing them the same way they view meerkats - ie they get sick of them....

    The point I am making is that it is not as simple as a lot of people seem to think that it is. I have spoken to the powers that be at various zoos about these things and they are not as simple as many people present them - as you yourself clearly know.
     
  13. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Exactly! We simply don't know...

    I will also add this: How many people on this forum had any idea that Melbourne Zoo was going to import snow leopards and breed them until it actually happened?
     
  14. Kifaru Bwana

    Kifaru Bwana Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    You are entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to theirs. But I do feel you are moving away from the main discourse you started out on with the argument that MZ/WORZ already have "the" species. Perhaps we have taken that as far as it can go.

    What you are talking about right here (and in the other reply above it) about species already being on site at MZ /WORZ is all well and good for the megafauna animal collection, but does nothing to shy away from the facts and figures that overall there has been a trend in declining total number of animal species exhibited at both zoos. That lack of diversity (and I am now only considering the mammals here) and the large areas given over to where visitors have nothing much to keep the average punter "occupied" between these is not a zoo grounded for the future.

    I really am very much convinced - and can testify by personal experience evidenced from many exchanges with visitors and the general zoo visiting public - that most visitors - and not just the Zoochat "hordes" - do love to see lots of animals and many different animal species, meaning mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates et cetera, when trodding along leisurely through a zoo. In the end, the job of a good zoo is to have a representative animal collection and that surely is not an mammal A-B-C laced variety - for lack of a better description - as some commercial managers, marketing and PR people would like us to believe. It is that sense of wonder that makes us and them tick!

    Now the argument of financial clout and that by having a good collection of A-B-C species big zoos are able to make a significant contribution to wildlife conservation and also for the little brown jobs. Any zoo can have some of the A-B-C species, not hold any they cannot maintain on their premises and still manage to have a diverse animal collection with both big, large and tiny or less sexy yet fascinating animal species within their collections and holding the full compliment (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians et cetera) without being heavily uneven towards one fylum over any of the others) and still run good financial figures and make a significant contribution to wildlife conservation or recovery programs in situ for endangered and threatened species (like the ones you mentioned that primarily Healesville is involved with).

    The other point you are bringing in really has very much to do with overall animal and genetic management of the Australian zoo populations of various species and also those in conservation breeding programs. Now, it may be that bureaucracy or politics are preventing from any IRA's coming through fast and furious as many on here have complained about the laborious and decades consuming nature almost of any IRA coming full circle to actual imports. But to keep its populations of individual exotic species healthy all Australian and New Zealand zoos will and do need to import animal species they hold in their collections in order to maintain some level of genetic health and diversity in their exotic animal species under management.

    Admittedly, this subject really has been discussed at length before when new species were taken on by one or other zoo. Many times in stead of the entire ZAA zoo community coming on board to manage a new to be established population effectively and welcome the changes and interest this will generate, it almost seems an inexplicable lacklustre attitude prevails with some others to not following through with providing adequate space and facilities. The almost inevitable net end result be that populations have been withering away and at long last when the population is too old or long in the tooth they are simply denoted as phase out - which might be interpreted effectively as a failure to do proper animal population management in the first place -.

    This pertains not only to what most of us Zoochatters would call the diversity range of species like Malayan tapir, pygmy hippo, leaf monkeys of various species (dusky, silvered ..), mandrill and even snow leopards (even though in my view they are less suited to the Australian arid environment / not so Kiwi New Zealand though). It equally applies to A-B-C species like common hippo, giraffe of purebred origins, various larger hoof stock like f.i. sable antelope and some of the rhino species (just to restrict myself to herbivores for now).
     
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  15. Zoofan15

    Zoofan15 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Melbourne Zoo have held Snow leopard since 1982, so the import of their current breeding pair was simply a case of them continuing to hold the species. If I recall, several people mentioned at the time of their import (and subsequent breeding) it was good to see Melbourne Zoo sustaining the regional population of this species - especially when others facilities have phased them out (or are looking to).

    Darling Downs Zoo are being rightly praised for their ambition to be one of the founding holding facilities of Sri Lankan leopard in the region - a pioneering achievement.

    This import is the subject of high interest because:

    A) The initiative of any facility to import a new felid in the face of multiple phase outs is much welcome.

    B) We all much admire Darling Downs Zoo (a small, privately owned zoo) for consistently taking the initiative to assist in reviving species neglected by the mainstream zoos. Like you say, it's good to give praise where praise is due; and if they pull this off, I can guarantee you'll be hearing about it for a long time in these forums. :)
     
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  16. Jambo

    Jambo Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    What happened to the Australian Brush Turkey? MZ had always kept one in the Growing Wild precinct.
     
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  17. Yoshistar888

    Yoshistar888 Well-Known Member

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    Enclosure became inacsessible, brush turkey never seen and it isn't listed on the map anymore.
     
  18. Jambo

    Jambo Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    I definitely recall seeing them at least in Spring of last year. The average lifespan of an Australian Brush Turkey is 10 years, and that individuals been there since Growing Wild opened in 2012, so it’s likely if the individual is gone; that it died of old age.
     
  19. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    You state they MZ dont need to import Zebras but a state funded zoo should be importing new bloodlines, the zebras they have would be a fair bit in bred as are many here so why cant they import new bloodlines, If a small regional zoo can import what I believe was the largest ever single import of Zebras into Australia why are MZ not doing so even though you state they dont need to but in fact they do need to do so, Since DDZ importation they have not only bred quite a few young some have been sent to other zoos around the country so they are gaining from this also, lets not look through rose coloured glasses
     
  20. Grant Rhino

    Grant Rhino Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Well I will take off my rose coloured glasses and say this: While DDZ are importing new bloodlines of zebra and other zoos are gaining from this, around 2 years ago WORZ (run by Zoos Victoria, just like MZ) imported a group of Nyala. Since then, the nyala have bred and other zoos now have some too.... as is the case with DDZ and the zebras.....

    As I keep saying, there is so much focus on what MZ and WORZ are not doing and almost nothing said about what they are doing.... In fact, there is so little said that I completely forgot about the nyala importation until earlier today....

    And just on that, the importation wasn't easy at all - as the nyala had to go via New Zealand (from Singapore if my memory serves me correctly) due to the hoofed stock restrictions.

    Maybe ZV should've made more of a song and dance about importing the nyala...

    And while I'm at it, I'd hardly call nyala a high profile species or an ABC species... In fact, before they imported them I had to actually do a search on Google to see what they looked like (which I do admit is a bit embarrassing....).

    As for the "inbred bloodlines" of zebra, how do you know they're inbred? Do you have a source for this or is it just an assumption? And secondly, if DDZ are importing them then why does ZV need to do the same thing at the same time? As you've said, the new bloodlines imported by DDZ will serve the whole national population to some degree. MZ did their bit by importing new snow leopards - hence they are already doing their bit...
     
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