It appears Tasmania Zoo recently acquired colobus and meerkat before the incident. Also, reading an article, PETA are asking for a reward from themselves for any information, which is all well and good, until you reach the bottom where they claim that the "incident highlights their concern that animals are not safe in zoos". EDIT: Chlidonias posted the article on the previous page.
Idiots are everywhere. I try to visit Taronga Zoo at least once a fortnight. Last weekend I had to have some words with someone who thought they could light up a cigarette in the zoo. It stank from miles around. Highly illegal now too, it's as bad as lighting up in a primary school classroom. A few weeks earlier I had to raise my voice and single out a child who was chasing the roosters on the pathway near the vulture enclosure. The mother wanted to defend her child (she looked at me and opened her mouth about to say something) but what can you do when you are the wrongest of wrong? Also, on one of my recent visits, some teenagers thought it was cool to throw their ice-cream wrappers into the moat surrounding Mary the Mueller's Gibbon's enclosure. It fired me up watching the creamy ice-cream surround some of the carp in the pond like a cloud. Their parents (father had a mullet with shaved sides - need I say more?) acted like they were proud of them. The world is full of ********s. It's up to us to defend the creatures that can't defend themselves.
Unfortunately, I am one of those creatures. For this reason, I am scared of telling visitors they are doing the wrong thing. A-holes come in all shapes and sizes, from kids, to defensive parents, to teens, to adults - but most of them are bigger than me.
A pity that a person as strong as you obviously are, felt the need to delete some very pertinent words. Your words were relevant to a significant part of the problem.
I have to disagree here. This isn't the typical lack of impulse control or simply stupid decisions associated with alcohol or drugs. If this is how they took revenge on the zoo, then that is a mental disease which I believe these individuals have, the uncurable disease known as psychopathy. I think these individuals should be imprisoned for life, as the crimes will clearly get worse (animal torture is just a step in the path of killing), and I believe these people will become killers/rapists/torturers if they are left on the streets. Plenty of psychopaths lead normal lives, but when these sort of people emerge, it is best to just remove them before they can do even worse things. My opinion anyways.
I'm sorry, what's your qualification to make such ridiculous claims? Criminologist? Forensic psychologist? Palm reader? I don't mean to be rude, but this is just more uninformed, knee-jerk rubbish.
Which claims are "rediculous?" It is my opinion that these type of people cannot be rehabilitated or cured. I get sick of the "everyone can be helped" point of view. It seems pretty obvious to me that some people need to be locked up. But, if you can, change my mind.
You are talking about locking people up for life (for what you yourself describe as mental illness - some justice in the Show Me State eh?). You have no idea who these people are or why they did it. Your argument comes out of self-righteous anger, which is never an appropriate emotion when talking about criminal justice (it's what leads to your countrymen's unique enthusiasm for putting people down like cats and dogs) and, related but even worse, self-evident ignorance. And yes, you are ignorant because we don't know who did it, so how could you not be? I won't try to change your mind. If you can't honestly see that declaring somebody to be a future rapist or murderer without knowing who they are is patently stupid (again, not setting out to be rude but I *am* trying to be honest), what hope do I have? I will just have to hope that college and the growing worldliness that comes with age and education will do that for you. I will simply leave you with this thought. America's "lock em up and either kill em or forget about em" style of criminal punishment doesn't seem to be working for you. The land of the free has more people behind bars than most of the rest of the democratic world combined. People with treatable mental conditions who commit the sin of being poor are more likely to end up in prison than in hospital. You have far more violent and petty crime. Your views are not uncommon in your home country (or mine, but less so, thankfully), I accept that. But nor do they seem to work very well.
Here, this might assist in this off-topic conversation: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all Enjoy
I say the following as someone who loves the USA, and truly admires many aspects of America, but.... ...the USA has the highest proportion of its population imprisoned of any country in the world - 743 for every 100,000 people. In comparison, the figures for the UK and Australia are about 150 per 100,000. Does this do anything to decrease crime in the country? I doubt it. The murder rate in the uSA is 4.2 per 100,000, compared to 1.2 in the Uk and 1 in Australia (and 91.6 in Honduras). Do these figures show anything? maybe. I know for sure that every large-ish city in the USA to which I have been has included areas that I have been advised to avoid. Crime clearly is an issue there, more than it is here, or in Australia - horrible events like the attack at Tasmania Zoo notwithstanding - despite the enthusiastic imprisonment of wrong-doers in America. Of course prison should be an option, and of course it should be used where needed, to protect and to deter. I just feel that the knee-jerk response of calling for these attackers to be locked up is a rather simplistic approach to a complex issue.
I respect your opinion and your truthfullness here, but I see what I consider ignorance in the mild anti-Americanism post here. I'll try to take it apart one at a time. I'm not going to pretend I know much about the Australian justice system, but if it is anything like the American, I do think these sub-humans should be given a fair trial, in which case any right-minded juror would convict them. I do not think that the death penatly is supported by everyone in the United States, and I am sure you would find many people throughout Europe and Australia who are fine with it. We dont "put people down like cats and dogs," only people who commit terrible crimes. I see it as pointless, but not morally wrong, as life in prison would be a worse punishment in my opinion. To be honest, I don't care who did it, because it is clear this stems from mental illness (though hardly an excuse, or no one would be responsible for their actions). Inevitable future crimes (though I know you don't beleive the will happen) should be prevented when they can, and these are the people who will commit them. I may aquire more knowlege in my later years, but what I consider common sense will hopefully stay with me. Seems to be working good (though I don't think we "forget about em" as you say.) Their are plenty of rehabilitation centers in America for people with addictions and such, which is great, but you cannot cure a lack of a soul and a need to inflict pain. Not really, people with mental conditions who commit CRIMES end up in prison, though there are a growing number of centers to help people with treatable mental diseases. I'd like to see those statistics (not that I doubt, just curious.) I think strict justice for crimes is completely reasonable. Taking it to the extremes of Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia of course is not what I have in mind, but criminals, like these individuals should be prosectues. I highly doubt either of our opinions will be changed, and that is fine. Your opinion is a respectable one here, though I think mine is correct.
I had wanted to stay out of this digression, but I'll say this: I don't want you on my jury if I am ever unjustly accused of anything
Of course, one of the biggest problems in America is the huge number of rediculous punishable crimes. Marijuana usage is the stupedist and one of the most punished crimes that I can think of, but there are dozens, if not hundreds of idiotic laws that people are punished for that I think are rediculous.
I never said people should be prosectued regardless of whether they commit a crime. If I think someone didn't commit a crime, I don't want them punished. Police wrongly accuse (an imprison) people of crimes ALL THE TIME! I would rather see 100 guilty men free than one innocent man in prison.
Exactly. Thank you And we have no idea who did these awful things or why. I think they are "sick,"... but I think hockey fans might be "sick," I have a lot of opinions. Thing is, I know they are just small minded opinions.
Honestly, not at all. Like many Australians in the political centre, there's a love-hate relationship with America. It's a country that established much of what we hold dear - individual human rights, the separation of church and state, opportunity at the core of social policy and a norms-based approach to foreign policy - and then threw it all away, a little bit at a time. But I don't blame all Americans. Just the post-Nixon Republicans. Listen to yourself. "A fair trial, in which case any right-minded juror would convict them". For "sub-humans". I don't think you belong on that jury. Your mind is made up. For future reference, a fair trial requires an open-minded jury. One that has to be convinced of guilt, not of innocence. This is the American system as well. On average, somebody on death row is found to be either innocent, or the victim of flaws in the legal process, every 58 days. Tragically, that doesn't always happen before somebody is murdered by the state. That's why it's morally wrong. Well, first of all, sometimes mental illness *is* an excuse. It goes back to those fair trials that you were talking about. To convict somebody under the law, there has to be both a criminal act *and* a capacity to comprehend the criminality of that act. In the absence of the latter, a conviction is illegal. Second, you don't know that there is a mental illness involved. I'm not sure that you really even understand what mental illness is. Empty, silly posturing. So we are now locking people away for crimes they might commit in the future? Fair trials... ah, forget it. Certainly. Except the bits that are based on ignorance and knee-jerk emotion. "Lack of a soul". I think we're getting closer to where this world-view on crime and punishment comes from. It's not the temporal sphere, is it? That's fine, if so, just understand that there's supposed to be a separation between private belief and public justice. Crime and mental illness are related. Sick people commit crimes that they would not have done had they been well. Where this is the case, nothing is served by putting them in prison, which is well established to be one of the worst possible environments for the mentally ill. Zooplantman's article should give you all the corroboration of my point that you require. Nobody is saying that these individuals, when caught, should not be prosecuted. Only that people shouldn't be spouting nonsense about their guilt or innocence before they're even identified! Surely not a controversial point. I respect your right to your opinion (after all, as noted above I have quite an attachment to 'made in America' principles like free speech), but not the opinion itself. I respect opinions based on evidence and critical reasoning, which I don't see here. Sorry.
I agree, I shouldn't be on that jury, because my mind is made up. But any thoughful jurour should be that these people are scum in a trial, and found guilty. I think the justice system (along with a lot of other government systems) needs to be reviewed and fixed. I don't believe abolishing the death penalty should be part of that, just being more careful with human lives. Your are again correct, that in cases of extreme mental illness, there should be different consequences, such as treatment as a mental facility. No one should be free after commiting a major crime though. I would bet every bit of money and propery I own that a mental illness is involved. Some form of mental illness HAS to be for this sort of thing to happen. Common sense must sometimes come into it as well, not just black and white law. It is an expression reffering to psychopathy, I am surprised you haven't heard it. I may need to stop using expressions. Alright, treat it in a case by case way, deciding if someone was in the right state of mind when doing this. Yes, I appreciate that. Not nonsense at all. Why chase after killers, they may end up being innocent. Completely rediculous. But much better than I what I said, and that is prettymuch what I mean as well.
Sigh. Being careful with human lives necessarily involves the abolition of the death penalty, though I'm conscious that we are really getting away from even tangential connection to the thread topic, so I will leave it at that. 1. Treatment at a mental facility is treatment, not a consequence. 2. Mental illness is a plausible explanation, but not a necessary one. My own guess, if it was a group of people, was that a bunch of teenagers were drunk or high and egged each other to do some pretty awful things. For what its worth, unlike mental illness that is not actually a mitigating factor for a crime in most cases. Uh, no. What to you is common sense is to others reactionary vindictiveness. And probably vice versa in some cases. The law isn't black and white (that leads to miscarriages of justice as well) but it has to be objective as much as it possibly can be. And what some people call 'common sense' (better understood as normative values) is subjective. I guarantee you that mainstream psychologists do not diagnose psychopaths as 'lacking a soul'. Lacking empathy and normal responses to fear, absolutely. A soul? That's some pretty fringe material that you've gotten that concept from, I fear. That's how the law is supposed to work. In both our countries. Words fail me. How on earth did you lift that from my comments? I didn't say not to pursue criminals. I said only to hold off on judging their motives and culpability until after they are caught! Mind-boggling.
