@patrick: Seems I struck a nerve here...Once again: what about being less snotty and more polite? And do You need 2 posts to say the same? Let me answer You question: -Elephants: The issue of husbandry of elephants in zoos is a hot topic with a lot of hardened opinions. In my personal point of view, I do not think that the current husbandry is optimal and would rather advocate the centralisation of the zoo population in a few centers. this doesn't mean that in the meantime the elephants already kept in urban zoos should not get a better treatment, may it be in terms of more "space", new/rebuilt exhibits like in Taronga or "mega"-buildings like in Cologne etc. However, I do not overlook the problem of the attraction factor of elephants in zoos as well as the problem of surplus, unwanted bulls. Even if I personally could do fine with a zoo without elephants, Great Apes etc., I do not make the mistake to assume this for the general zoo audience. I'd therefore advise that zoos, even in urban surroundings, could keep and display f.e. bulls- if they can keep them adequately. If the zoo can't do that, I recommend Frankfurt's way and also the better education of the visitors why no elephants are held as well as offering a "replacement" (Elephant playground...). BTW: where did I "cite plenty of examples of zoos quite close to eachother that both house elephants"? Or: "its ethically wrong to give them such little space in urban zoos"? -I already mentioned in various threads how I depicted part of the future of zoos & their breeding programs (do the key words "shared non-public conservation centers", "balance point specialisation", "reduced red tape", "increased international cooperation, including2/ 3rd World zoos" etc. ring a bell?)-shall I ape Your example and repeat myself again? -You can find arguments against Your statement here as well as in various other posts of mine, f.e. "Boring" animals. Once again, You failed to grasp the argumentation by wrongly interpretating the part of the "pet shop species" without grasping the whole idea: the standardisation and unification of the collection & presentation possibily leading to ponderosity of the zoos in terms of acute species endangerement, lack of creativity in terms of husbandry & exhibit design, dubious educational "benefits" and even loss of attractiveness. -If You have a good, solid argument, even "darting" at the "pettiest loopholes" and "micro-details" shouldn't make it stagger-and shouldn't make You behave like a bear woken up from hibernation. Especially in terms of the reality of zoos, God & the Devil sometimes are in the details. If You want to be taken seriously, You also have to cope with that-and maybe try to keep cool if someone questions details, and not consider these questions personal insults and thus flare up and argue abusively. "pissy", "missing the point entirely" and "irrelevant"? Are You serious? Or did Your style of writing became so coarse and limited in its choice of words & good manners that You can't write a single post in a polite and less dorty manner? "explain that, without contradicting yourself, and i'll concede that that the mighty wordsmith and devil's advocate sun wukong, has done me over, once and for all." Sigh; it seems snowleopard is right and my choice of word seems to be too elaborate for some to grasp; what did I write about hardened feelings, hmm? I never believed an European would say that to an Australian, but: lighten up, mate, keep Your temper-and maybe try to keep Your obligatory po-faced answer a little more on a better dispute atmosphere-beneficial side, will Ya? TIA We might benefit both from that.
Can we please get back to the topic at hand..? Below is my last post, before Sun (again) pushed this thread off topic and I would enloy some comment on it or more posts on topic (a topic I was finding very interesting...)
Have you not heard of the Australasian Species Management Program (ASMP) and it's Taxon Advisory Groups, Jeremy? That is exactly what the groups are about - regional cooperation, species management, and regional and institutional collection planning. There's a whole lot that goes on behind the scenes, and many, many hours of often heated debate about regional and insitutional collection planning take place continually. People outside the industry only see the end product, and then impose their own ideas/theories on what led to the outcomes that they see. In the absence of knowldge and understanding about the lengthy discussions behind the decisions, it's easy to judge the actions of some of the zoos, but much of it makes complete sense when you know what has led to the various decisions. All of the zoos you've listed are mebers of the ASMP, and in most cases, all work cooperatively to ensure the survival of viable populations, based on the restrictions that we face in this region. (Sometimes decisions against ASMP recommendations are made, but we can't all agree, all of the time, as members of this forum would be well aware ) As for this, You have one of the most committed zoos in the region when it comes to conservation and species management, Auckland Zoo, right on your doorstep. I'm sure you'd be aware of much of the great work they do with NZ wildlife, and if not, it would be worth taking a look at what they do. All of the zoos you've listed comit considerable resources to in situ conservation within the region, and overseas, in various ways, and to varying amounts, but that comittment is definitely there.
Hey ZooPro... I've heard of the ASMP (I've read most of the ARAZPA website, the non-member part at least..!) and of the TAGs, I was also aware consultation between zoos exists in an organised way, however I wasn't aware it was to the level you've informed us... My opinions weren't meant solely as a critism more of a "I know they try their best but it would be great if the governing body had a "list" that couldn't be deviated from and the governing body had the final say"... A wishful thinking rumination kind of thing... I also know you probably have had a big part in the development of the management plans, no offence intended... You're right Auckland Zoo is fantastic when it comes to conservation both in and ex-situ... Whether it is of native species such as: The Kiwi Recovery program, Tuatara, Weta, Kākā, Kererū, Brown Teal, Blue Duck and Archey's Frog, or exotic species like: The turtle and tortoise programme in Cuc Phuong National Park, Sumatran Orangutan Project and the Sumatran Tiger project. In the past projects included the Sun Bear. 'Area' projects include 'ark in the park' and a forest up in Northland (I can't remember the name of)... My comments about "lip service" was not about ex-situ conservation but once again more about the particular species of animals in the listed zoos...
