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ZooDoo Wildlife Park Yet more White Lions!

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Nisha, 18 Jan 2010.

  1. Nisha

    Nisha Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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  2. Steve Robinson

    Steve Robinson Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Fancy jay being beaten by a Pom with news that is 5 days old!! You are slipping mate.
     
  3. phoenix

    phoenix Well-Known Member

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    arghhhhh.....

    i HAAAAAAAAAAATE white lions!!!!!
     
  4. Jesse

    Jesse Well-Known Member

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    why do you hate white lions?
     
  5. phoenix

    phoenix Well-Known Member

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    lets not go there again.

    but do read some of the older threads on white lions.
     
  6. Jesse

    Jesse Well-Known Member

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    i think i will take your advice
     
  7. MRJ

    MRJ Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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  8. Steve Robinson

    Steve Robinson Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    You certainly could, and should.

    But don't just take Mr Dickinson on a bad day at face value. Read further and take on board all aspects of the propagation of these beautiful animals.

    Nowhere did I see Mr Cuttriss quoted as saying that white lion breeding is for "conservation".

    So go and see them for yourself and appreciate them for what they are - a wonderful white version of Panthera leo.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2010
  9. phoenix

    phoenix Well-Known Member

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    aw steve comeon!

    not you too! i take it you accept that the white lion is not a conservation issue.
    so for what reason is it you condone their propagation?

    aesthetics?

    superior educational opportunities? or both?
     
  10. ZYBen

    ZYBen Well-Known Member

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    What a great effort for a privatley owned non ARAZPA zoo to import these animals!
     
  11. Steve Robinson

    Steve Robinson Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Wonderful education tools.

    Great discussion starters.

    Beautiful to look at.

    Point of difference to get people through the gate.

    REAL lions - not hybridised subspecies halfwits.

    Hows that for a start?
     
  12. MARK

    MARK Well-Known Member

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    I feel you have some good points there Steve, not bad at all
     
  13. phoenix

    phoenix Well-Known Member

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    i was hoping you might say that. because it is my belief that not only do white lions offer no real advantage over tawny lions as an educational tool they actually undermine real lion conservation and instead preach a conservation fallacy. even if a given zoo pulls no punches about white lions origins (and what white lion touting zoo does?), they are still essentially saying "regular lions need protection in the wild, because lions are amazing. but here for your enjoyment are some even better ones we made". likewise if its simply an educational lesson of lion biology and behaviour in general - then isn't the best subject a bona-fide wild-type lion? more likely and more damaging however, is if its education about lion conservation, can't you see that in displaying a pride of selectively bred non-natural lions, you compromise the integrity of the true wild-type lion at best and actually misinform and subvert the real lion conservation programs. truth is no zoo that houses white lions tells the truth that white lions are indeed an anomaly that have failed to establish themselves in the wild and that they instead breed them simply for aesthetics. because that doesn't sit so well with most.

    yes, usually revolving around the ethics of their propagation.

    being a question of taste i can't tell you that you're wrong. however i think its fair to say that the disadvantages to breeding white lions far outweigh the value in them aesthetically.

    hardly. when mogo zoo first imported white lions they thought they had secured a drawcard that was unique to their zoo in the country. in just a few short years there are now 3 zoos in the country with white lions. this is in part thanks to mogo zoo breeding so many they had to actually undercut their own attraction by offloading some to another zoo. they could just have easily bred leopards or jaguars or imported another species of animal entirely and secured just as unique an attraction.

    so cross bred lions are halfwits and inbred ones are not?!! i think the evidence would support that hybrid vigour is actually associated with good health whereas inbreeding, as is the case of white lions creates the halfwits.

    likewise there is nothing "REAL" about white lions.

    on a side note - there is growing consensus amongst taxonomists that there is actually only two extant subspecies of lion represented - the african and asian. now you are probably more informed on this topic than i am, but it is my understanding that the mainstream australian population of zoo lions are of varying african ancestry. thus if the two subspecies argument is accepted, then any african "crossbreed" proves to be a pure as they come.

    well, pretty poor to be honest. i think the only argument that i can't instantly dismiss is that they are attractive. but likewise you can't say you won that point either. however i do warmly invite you to try and counter any of my arguments. i do like a good debate.

    till we meet again old friend..........
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2010
  14. MRJ

    MRJ Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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    Great post, well argued, and right on the spot.
     
  15. ZYBen

    ZYBen Well-Known Member

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    They aren't in an ARAZPA zoo, taking places from a program species, so whats the problem with a private zoo wanting/owning White Lions?
     
  16. MRJ

    MRJ Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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    I guess it depends on your philosophy. If you think that it is OK for zoos to be solely places of entertainment, with animals simply there as objects of amusement, then fine why not white lions?

    If you believe that zoos should also have a roll in education and conservation, then you have to question them. I've got to give it to them, ZooDoo's website makes no real claims about education or conservation, so I guess at least they are honest. They also have a number of other domesticated animals as well. (And yes I am implying that white lions, bred for that trait, are domesticated).

    By the way, ZooDoo were once ARAZPA members. Are they not anymore?
     
  17. ZYBen

    ZYBen Well-Known Member

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    What zoo is not there for at least a little bit of entertainment? Have you never seen the Seal/Tiger/Elephant shows that look exactly like what we see in a circus? Which is there for entertainment.

    If someone wants to get White Lions, has the facilities and they arent having a negative effect on species managment in Australia then I have no problem with it. Its not like ZooDoo got rid of Sumatran Tigers or Snow Leopards to get white lions.

    I do believe ZooDoo would have less of a Lion conservation message, having only White Lions and no Tawny Lions to compare to.

    I was unaware that ZooDoo were ARAZPA members, I do not believe they are anymore.
     
  18. Steve Robinson

    Steve Robinson Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    As I said at the top, I'm looking at this situation from the point of someone who has to compete with some very vigorous marketers in order to keep my zoo financially viable.

    I also have to get people to stop and listen to my various conservation/preservation messages.

    On both scores I need all the help that I can get.

    I acknowledge that there are some negatives in displaying white lions but I feel that the positives far outweigh them.
     
  19. MRJ

    MRJ Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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    Did I say they weren't? Don't think so....

    Of course a visit must be entertaining, why else would people visit? And the more so if you are trying to pass on a message - nobody likes being lectured to.

    Several years ago I did the swim with the dolphins at Seaworld - great experience I will never forget. Seaworld staff use the opportunity to pass on a message, and claim that anybody who does the swim will only ever use dolphin-friendly tuna again. I can well believe them.

    And I have to say that there are plenty of people out there who only see a justification for zoos in terms of their conservation and education outcomes. Those people have a real effect on attitudes of governments to zoos. In fact increasingly licensing authorities across the world are demanding demonstration of conservation and education outcomes as a prerequisite to zoo licences.

    Personally I wouldn't be bothered in spending my time and money in doing what I am doing if I did not believe we could not achieve a positive conservation outcome. I sort of wonder why anybody would bother if they wern't interested in that sort of outcome, but that is just me.
     
  20. ZYBen

    ZYBen Well-Known Member

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    I didnt word that correct, it was more of a general statement, not a direct go at you.

    If white lions are what a facility uses to get the message across about Lion conservation, a matter we should all be aware of as most people take lions for granted!
    And if they want them to have seomthing nice/different to look at well thats all good too!
    No one seems to care when a facility has a White Tammar Wallaby for something different.