Just a question for the Anti-White Lion mob. What kind of Domestic Dog/Cat/Rabbit/Whatever! do you guys have, if you have one? Surely not a severly inbred Pedigree? or a less inbred Crossbreed? Or do you all have dingoes or wolves
Good point Ben. Once we start displaying labradors and chows besides our dingoes and wolves, we have a valid reason for breeding and displaying white lions. Same processes are required to produce a pedigree dog as a white lion.
The genealogy chart for Pretoria's White Lions shows two white lions (Temba and Klientjie) producing in 1985 a litter of three tawny cubs. A mistake in the chart I imagine. Hix
For a pedigree dog, cat, cow or any other domestic breed the animal must first be registered with the breed co ordinator, with details of ancestry proving that the animal is pure bred, just like with a studbook for rothschilds giraffe. Each animal is selected for its show qualities, ie is the tail the right length, colour the right shade, just the right curviture to the body and so on. Then to fix the correct physical detail, or to improve it the animal is mated with another that has the desirable characteristics. Often this means a close relative. This is where line breeding beigins where fathers are mated to daughters, sons to mothers and every now and then a more distant relative is brought in. Tis is also how colour mutations are fixed. White lions I beleive are recessive so for the colour to show both breeding animals must have the gene. A white lion mated to a tawny that doesn't have the white gene will produce all tawnies but all the cubs would then carry the white gene. Then you could mate brother/sister and theoretically 1/4 of the resulting cubs would be white. If you mated the white parent to its young I think 1/2 of the cubs would be white and the other 1/2 tawny but carrying the white gene.
If you can't see the connection, there seems to be little more I can say to help you. I'm really getting bored with this thread, as I am sure others are too. It is obvious that there are a group of "fans" of odd animals like white lions on this list who really cannot get it. There may be arguments that white lions are useful for pulling in patronage to zoos, that once the crowds are there they can be used to pass on a conservation message, even that they are a useful tool for teaching about mutations. I might argue the point but I will admit there is a point to be made. But then we have comments like this: From a species management point of view, white lions are simply rubbish. They, and other recessive mutations, are the flotsam that float around clogging up spaces. The only value they would ever have for a breeding program is if they were pretty well the only representatives of that species still alive. Then they would be only a desperate, pitiful last ditch. Why am I so passionate about this? What are we going to have next? White zebras? White koalas? Orange pandas? Any species is capable of producing colour mutations and the way to establish them is to inbreed (or line breed as some politely refer to it). This passion for colour mutations is the reason the hobby of aviculture in Australia is almost useless for conservation. I would have thought that people on a group such as this might be interested in seeing zoo management policies in place that supported conservation, and worked towards the long-term maintenance of populations, and in the long term the ongoing viability of zoos. I also object to the implication that always surrounds these animals that the people who keep and breed them are, by doing so, somehow doing something worthwhile for conservation. So now having offended the entire white lion cheer squad, I'll retire from the debate.
Oh and there is a standard, usually a painting showing the ideal look of the breed, that the breeders then aspire to create. This is usually totally idealistic and at its most picky boils down to just the right length of a feature to the nearest mm or spots in just the right shape, size and place (eg dalmations). In my opinion it is really carried to excess and you end up with animals that can't breathe or eat or stand even.
In the comment you quoted I was refering 1; to cheetah and 2; animals that carry the gene not showing it! I would just like to say that I am not for the propagation of large numbers of white lions in our region. But I do support a zoo doing what it has to to allow it to get where they want to go. as long as it is within the law. Not having white lions will never impact on the attendance figures of our major zoos. I was very dissapointed with Mogo and Canberra's action being a part of ARAZPA but for ZooDoo they can do what they want and they feel necessary.
Just my two cents worth on this topic, While I would not like to see wall to wall White Lions in our large major zoos I do not have a problem if some of our smaller zoos wish to have them, I agree 100% with what Jarkari has stated below I would just like to say that I am not for the propagation of large numbers of white lions in our region. But I do support a zoo doing what it has to to allow it to get where they want to go. as long as it is within the law. Not having white lions will never impact on the attendance figures of our major zoos. I was very dissapointed with Mogo and Canberra's action being a part of ARAZPA but for ZooDoo they can do what they want and they feel necessary.[/QUOTE]
Having followed this interesting debate and resisted making any comment, what I would like to know: Is the fact that a small non-ARAZPA zoo able to import white lions (a non-program 'species'), then mean that a similar situation could result in an import of (dare I suggest as an example) jaguars? If this collection was to successfully breed the animals. producing surplus offspring which could make it's way to other collections (with the possibility of including ARAZPA zoos), would this mean an almost back-door entry for a species to be reinstated in the country? Although obviously unlikely, is it a theoretical possibility and then does the ARAZPA collection planning look a little suspect, open to any collection's whim? Assuming an import licence is permitted, of course.
If the facility could import, then yes. there would be nothing stopping them if it all went through. But i believe NON ZAA Zoo's can't import CITIES 1, just CITIES 2 etc...species
.......well then in that case ARAZPA or ZAA or whatever the h*ll it's called these days has too much power; too much clout , if it can prevent a licensed zoo from importing legally sourced animals just because said zoo is not a member of its association. Fair dinkum, for a supposedly free country, the amount of regulation and restriction that the average Australian citizen (and organisation) has to live with is getting more and more onerous!
The thing that gets me, is that ZAA is not a government body, why should they be consulted, of course if I was trying to import some Lion Tailed Macaques they would try to stop it. If your licensed and the Government body that governs what you can and can't have/import can't make that decision for themselves, maybe they need to look at their staffing!
i don't have any faith in ARAZPA not because i think a regional zoo association is useless, but because i think the major zoos that have all the say are. that said, i don't think its unwise to refuse import permits to zoos wishing to import endangered species when the breeding program is not endorsed or in conjunction with the regions major zoo association. are we, a bunch of proclaimed conservationists, actually suggesting that anyone who holds a permit to keep exotic species should be allowed to import, and thus trade freely, in CITES 1 species? i don't think thats wise. i'm certainly not going to vouch for every dude with a circus or backyard zoo in this country. i've seen some shockers. and what about once these animals are imported. if there is no ARAZPA contribution, how can there be any kind of assurance that these animals will be cared for or managed properly? whats stopping a pygmy hippo being let in the outback? ARAZPA has a dispositions policy. non ARAZPA zoos do not. now like i said - i don't think ARAZPA is very efficient as i don't think melbourne, taronga etc are very efficient. obviously there is a good deal of internal politics involved as well. i wish steve all the best with his application. i sincerely hope his zoo becomes a member. but i don't think the answer to the robinsons lack of progress is to allow anyone with a zoo license the right to start importing any species they wish. because without a zoo association - i can't see how one can otherwise effectively restrict or the amount of private individuals trading in endangered species and monitor their breeding programs.
How is the care in an ZAA Zoo guaranteed? I've certainly seen shockers in ZAA Zoo's too, Barn owls kept in Cocky Cages for years! I couldn't get away with that at home, and no zoo should! I dont accept being held in an 'member' or 'accreditted' insitution a guarantee on the animal safety and care. I believe privately owned Zoo's where the owners have an active role would have better standards, problems rectified quicker, and the animals day to day care better managed by someone who can! Regarding disposition policies, Private Zoo's (most of them) have all those little buddy parks they deal with, all falling under their umbrella (even the people with a couple of old Macaques in the yard do) , and if need be, those people dealing and knowing the owners and people in charge directly, I believe would implement any dispersal plans quicker than any Association. I know of a Macaque who had been placed with another approriatte home (not zoo) quicker than a ZAA computer tech fixes spelling errors. Was Coffs an AZAZPA (at that time) Zoo? Not all the animals there were kept in optimum or ideal conditions during dispersal.
With regard to importing animals, CITES or not, they can only be imported to a zoo with a government-accredited quarantine facility. So, if your zoo does not have quarantine facilities, you need to find one that does and who will be happy to have it tied up for a period with your animals (and they may not wish to do this, or even have room). Once the animal is released it may remain under quarantine surveillance for a few years and must be kept in a secure facility (with 24 hour on-site security etc.) Plus, DEWHA may have regulations regarding the import of CITES I and II species and where they go (eg. CITES I must be from an accredited breeding program, and/or be taking part in one). Check the EPBC Act. Hix
