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ZooChat Cup finals: Chester vs Vienna

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 11 Jan 2020.

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Chester vs Vienna: South and Central America

Poll closed 13 Jan 2020.
  1. Chester 3-0 Vienna

    6.5%
  2. Chester 2-1 Vienna

    80.6%
  3. Vienna 2-1 Chester

    12.9%
  4. Vienna 3-0 Chester

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    South and Central America. This should be good.
     
  2. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    A proper post with photos and arguments to follow, but for now I shall say it's an easy 3-0 for Chester in my opinion per the best exhibit in Europe for three major category species (Giant Otter, Spectacled Bear, Jaguar), a whole raft of other "merely" very good exhibits, a rather extensive collection and involvement in several major breeding/conservation programmes.
     
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  3. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    Have you forgotten Zurich?
     
  4. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    Anyway, Vienna does have something to say for itself: It has a very nice Spectacled bear exhibit, a nice Humboldt penguin exhibit, a very nice Rainforest area, a large Pantanal exhibit and of course the historic and beautiful aviary area at the top of the zoo. 2-1 for me.
     
  5. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope, that's where the phrase "in my opinion" comes in :p
     
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  6. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    Species lists:

    Chester
    Azara's agouti
    Bearded emperor tamarin
    Black-and-gold howler monkey
    Bush dog
    Capybara
    Colombian black spider monkey
    Eastern pygmy marmoset
    Giant anteater
    Giant otter
    Golden headed lion tamarin
    Jaguar
    Linnaeus' two-toed sloth
    Paraguayan tamandua
    Pied tamarin
    Seba's short-tailed bat
    South American tapir
    Southern pudu
    Spectacled bear
    Yellow-breasted capuchin

    Vienna
    Bearded emperor tamarin
    Callimico
    Capybara
    Collared peccary
    Common red-rumped agouti
    Common squirrel monkey
    Cottontop tamarin
    Giant anteater
    Linnaeus' two toed sloth
    Pallas' long tongued bat
    Pygmy marmoset
    Seba's short-tailed bat
    South American coati
    South American sea lion
    South American tapir
    Southern three-banded armadillo
    Spectacled bear
    St Vincent agouti
    Vicuna
    White-faced saki
    White-nosed coati


    Interestingly enough, Vienna actually has more mammal species in this category than Chester (21-19).
    Might do reptiles and birds later.
    Vienna exhibits I have forgotten to mention have been the sea lion exhibit and the polar penguin exhibits.
     
  7. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, you just reminded me to cite the best bat house/exhibit in Europe as an additional reason to vote 3-0 for Chester ;)
     
  8. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member

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    3-0 for Chester would be entirely undeserved, I think they have the edge but Vienna also has an excellent Spectacled bear exhibit, a fantastic bird walkthrough, a good pantanal enclosure, several very good reptilian displays and multiple other average to good enclosures throughout the zoo.
     
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  9. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    Birds:

    Chester
    American flamingo
    Blue-necked tanager
    Blue-throated macaw
    Brazilian tanager
    Collared trogon
    Elegant crested tinamou
    Golden parakeet
    Great green macaw
    Green aracari
    Grey-breasted parakeet
    Humboldt penguin
    Hyacinth macaw
    Lilacine amazon
    Passerini's tanager
    Red-billed curassow
    Red-cowled cardinal
    Roseate spoonbill
    Scarlet ibis
    Spectacled owl
    Sunbittern
    White-faced whistling duck

    Vienna
    American flamingo
    Black-billed amazon
    Blue dacnis
    Blue-backed grassquit
    Blue-backed manakin
    Blue-grey tanager
    Brazilian tanager
    Burrowing parrot
    Cuban grassquit
    Greater rhea
    Green-mantled tanager
    Humboldt penguin
    King penguin
    Mexican white-fronted amazon
    Northern rockhopper penguin
    Purple honeycreeper
    Red-legged seriema
    Scarlet ibis
    Southern screamer
    Sunbittern
    Turquoise tanager
    Ultramarine grosbeak
    Violaceous euphonia
    Wattled jacana
    White-faced whistling duck
    Yellow-billed amazon

    Again Vienna beats Chester in birds (26-21).

    Reptiles up next.
     
  10. Penshet

    Penshet Well-Known Member

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    I think that a 3-0 score is quite unfair to Vienna. They have 0 bad (or even mediocre) exhibits for their South/Central American fauna. Their enclosures for spectacled bears, Humboldt penguins and South American sea lions are perfectly adequate, although not particularly exceptional.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The South American Park has a standard combination of larger species: capybara, lowland tapir, vicuña, greater rhea, giant anteater and seriema. This part of the park was renovated in 2010 and it shows, as the indoor housing looks great. The outdoor paddock is pretty huge too, with plenty of water features and vegetation.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In the Ape House there are a couple of South American species housed as well: emperor tamarin, Goeldi's monkey, white-faced saki, common squirrel monkey, pygmy marmoset, southern three-banded armadillo and red-rumped agouti. All of these animals have access to outdoor aviaries and indoor enclosures.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The Bird House has been often talked about, and I think it's important to note that it really is one of the best bird houses in Europe. It's not huge like Berlin's Bird House or has super-rare species like Walsrode's Paradise Hall, but it does have a nice species line-up in a superbly restored historical building. In essence, Vienna's Bird House has two walkthrough South American rooms: one with two-toed sloths and some poison dart frogs, and then one with birds. Highlights here are blue-backed manakin (breeding regularly!), purple honeycreeper and white-fronted amazon.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In the Aquarium and Terrarium House there are also various South American species on-display. The most notable exhibit here is the large enclosure with an enormous amount of Pallas's long-tongued bats and caiman lizards. Also present are arapaima (visible from an underwater tunnel) and green anaconda (in an enclosure with a large amount of water).
    [​IMG]

    Additionally, a few other species are spread throughout the zoo: scarlet ibis, Seba's short-tailed bat in the Rainforest House, burrowing parakeet near the main entrance, white-nosed coati next to the Rainforest House, collared peccary next to the bison, American flamingos, yellow-billed and black-billed amazons.
     
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  11. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    And Reptiles:

    Chester:
    Amazon Basin emerald tree boa
    Caiman lizard
    Graham's anole
    Haitian giant galliwasp
    Leach's anole
    Serrated casquehead iguana
    Spectacled caiman

    Vienna:
    Arboreal alligator lizard
    Caiman lizard
    Cascabel rattlesnake
    Common ameiva
    Common anaconda
    Exuma Island rattlesnake
    Hermann's tortoise
    Hilaire's side-necked turtle
    Hispaniolan rhinoceros iguana
    Honduran Paleate spiny-tailed iguana
    Morelet's crocodile
    Red-sided curly-tailed lizard
    Serrated casquehead iguana
    South American snapping turtle
    West Indian iguana
    Yellow anaconda

    Vienna again beats Chester in reptiles 16-7.
     
  12. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    See, my point is that whilst Chester also lacks any bad or mediocre exhibits for their category species, they DO have four exceptional exhibits - the Jaguar house plus associated sloth, agouti and aquarium exhibits, the giant otters, the spectacled bears and the bat house - along with several excellent exhibits, and it is this which earns the 3-0 in my opinion rather than any failing on Vienna's part.
     
  13. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    The Pantanal exhibit is over 3500 square metres large:

    vienna.PNG
     
  14. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    For me, these 'special' exhibits are the only things that earn Chester a 2-1 win. Elsewhere, Vienna has good to excellent exhibits along with a significantly better species list.
     
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  15. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    I think the Spectacled bear and Humboldt penguin exhibits for the species are among the best I have seen. The penguins have access to nests carved into the rocks beyond the lake and there is a nice waterfall feeding the pool. They have quit a lot of land area, most of it rocky and steep as it would be in the wild. There is also the polar penguin exhibit inside the Polar area.
     
  16. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Even disregarding these four exhibits, Chester *also* has good to excellent exhibits - and, I would argue, better than the majority of the good-to-excellent exhibits you cite at Vienna.

    Which reminds me, two out of the three penguin species you cite are not valid species for the challenge - Humboldt counts, but the other two would come under the Islands geographic zone in my opinion. King could, I suppose, be debated, but Northern Rockhopper certainly isn't a South American species.
     
  17. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    I wouldn't say significantly better - especially given the fact that your lists are, as I noted above, not entirely accurate :p on a related note, you didn't bother to list the amphibian collections:

    Chester - 18 species

    Bloody Bay poison frog (Mannophryne olmonae)
    Blue poison dart frog (Dendrobates tinctorius var. "Azureus")
    Coronated treefrog (Triprion spinosus)
    Golden poison frog (Phyllobates terribilis)
    Green and black poison dart frog (Dendrobates auratus)
    Imitating poison dart frog (Ranitomeya imitator)
    Lake Pátzcuaro salamander (Ambystoma dumerilii)
    Marañón poison frog (Excidobates mysteriosus)
    Mexican leaf frog (Agalychnis dacnicolor)
    Mission golden-eyed tree frog (Trachycephalus resinifictrix)
    Morelet's tree frog (Agalychnis moreletii)
    Mountain chicken (Leptodactylus fallax)
    Rio Cauca caecilian (Typhlonectes natans)
    Strawberry poison frog (Oophaga pumilio)
    Sylvia's tree frog (Cruziohyla sylviae)
    Titicaca water frog (Telmatobius culeus)
    Trinidad leaf frog (Phyllomedusa trinitatis)
    Trinidad poison frog (Mannophryne trinitatis)

    Vienna - 14 species

    Anderson's salamander (Ambystoma andersoni)
    Cayenne caecilian (Typhlonectes compressicauda)
    Dyeing dart frog (Dendrobates tinctorius)
    Golfodulcean poison dart frog (Phyllobates vittatus)
    Helmeted water toad (Calyptocephalella gayi)
    Lake Pátzcuaro salamander (Ambystoma dumerilii)
    Marañón poison frog (Excidobates mysteriosus)
    Marine toad (Rhinella marina)
    Mission golden-eyed tree frog (Trachycephalus resinifictrix)
    Mountain chicken (Leptodactylus fallax)
    Strawberry poison frog (Oophaga pumilio)
    Surinam toad (Pipa pipa)
    Titicaca water frog (Telmatobius culeus)
    Yellow-banded poison dart frog (Dendrobates leucomelas)
     
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  18. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    No, I maintain that the Northern rockhopper penguin makes common appearances on Argentinian and Chilean mainland shores.

    a a a a nrp.jpg
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2020
  19. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    The Southern Rockhopper, which breeds in the Falklands and South Georgia, does indeed occur relatively regularly on the mainland of South America. However, the Northern Rockhopper - which lives and breeds on Tristan da Cunha, Gough Island and the Amsterdam and St Paul islands of the southern Indian Ocean - does not.

    Trying to present a range map for all three rockhopper species (which is made obvious by the fact it shows the Pacific range of the Eastern Rockhopper too) and claiming it shows the range of the Northern Rockhopper in order to justify your claims is precisely the sort of thing we have called you out on in the past :p funny thing is, it's not even accurate for all three species as the South Atlantic populations of Northern Rockhopper are missing.

    As you noted the size of the mixed South American paddock, a comparison from the most directly comparable exhibits at Chester (the Brazilian Tapir exhibit, and the opposite mixed Capybara and Giant Anteater exhibits):

    tapir capy antea.PNG

    Significantly larger, yes?

    On a related note, this is the area granted to the neighbouring Spectacled Bear exhibit; for comparison note that the Vienna exhibit is 1,500 m² whilst the Zurich exhibit cited as superior is almost exactly the same size, but marginally smaller, at 4,200 m² :

    spectacled.PNG

    ....and the complex of callitrichid exhibits.....

    callitrichid.PNG

    ....and the Jaguar house plus associated outdoor exhibits (including exhibits for Azara's Agouti and Linnes' Sloth, and for Southern Pudu)

    jaguars etc.PNG
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2020
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  20. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    As for the Rockhopper penguins, that is an honest mistake caused by two maps which claimed to show the range of the Northern species, on Wikipedia and on google search. However claiming that my whole list is untrustworthy is exaggerating slightly, since there isn't another mistake in there. I don't appreciate the assumption that I 'tried' to put a map of the southern species on there, it came up as one of the first results when I searched up a range map, and recognising the IUCN map style, I chose it. That is just unfair and a show of misjudgement.

    As for exhibit sizes, the fact still remains that Vienna's animals have more space in their Pantanal exhibits.
    As for the jaguar building, giving the size of the whole building is slightly misleading since a lot of it is keeper areas, visitor walkways and the large hall for the visitors...