Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 19 Jan 2020.
Wroclaw quite desperately needs this. Primates.
I don't know really anything about these two zoos in this category, but Wroclaw has quite significantly more species and Zurich seems to have quite a poor ape house. On the other hand, there is Masoala with the lemurs, so not sure whether it cancels out the factors in favour of Wroclaw? Maybe someone who has visited both zoos can clarify
Does the Ape House out weigh Masoala in their polar opposites? Probably, but then there's also that pretty nice gelada habitat as well... I'm going 2-1 Zurich for now. Someone want to make a case for Wroclaw, even though I've heard some pretty scathing comments on their monkey house.
Fair question. I’m seeing a lot of consensus without a lot of explanation for why.
I collected images from the two zoos' primate exhibits. There are no pictures of apes (save gibbons) from Wroclaw from the past five years. Since I have never visited Wroclaw, it would help if someone could point out any outdated pictures.
Apes & Gibbons
Baboons / gelada
The outdoor orangutan and gorilla enclosures at Zurich look appalling for a zoo of their standing, a good reason not to vote for Zurich in this contest and I'm considering 3-0 Wroclaw! Those enclosures look on a par with the worst I have seen for those species.
I think, I have pictures of Wroclaws' Chimpanzee house. I will check tonight. The building is from the 70's and one of the main reasons for me to vote against Wroclaw, despite negative impact, that Zurich's Ape house has.
Not sure anything could be worse than that orangutan cage!
Probably not, but it is definitely a minus for me. On this level of the game, I am tying not to base my judgement only on one exhibit. Regardless best or worst.
The outdoor cage is bad, but indoors is better than the pictures show and certainly far from the worst put there.
From what I have heard of Wroclaw their Primate house is not exactly great either...
The outdoor isn't just bad, it's a disgrace in what is probably considered a top 10 European zoo by most ! I would argue the indoor lemur hall compounds just how bad the outdoor ape 'exhibits' actually are, it doesn't compensate for them!
The gorilla and orang utan enclosures date back to 1984 and at the time - at least according to the zoo itself - were standard setting in gorilla and orang utan husbandry, making possible holding these animals in groups. In these enclosures, the zoo have highly functional social groups (which also breed very successfully), and indeed the zoo ventures to profess that...
"Even though our current great ape holding is very good, notably with many measures implemented, which enable the animals to pass interesting and stimulating lives, the zoo for some time now has been intent to also create naturalistic, planted enclosures for the great apes, as we have been able to create for many other species in recent years."
While I'm no expert on this, the professed 'very good' holding appears a rather bold claim. More importantly, I believe that the zoo deserves criticism for implementing the Lewa development with new species brought into the zoo, before building new enclosures for the great apes. It would have made more sense to improve the situation for the great apes, directly after the elephants.
The outdoor orang utan enclosure, while somewhat larger than it appears on the picture, indeed does not suit the zoo at all.
That is the current situation for the great apes at Zurich. A new development is scheduled for 2025.
In addition to the great apes, the zoo have four other areas with primates, Masoala, Semien, Pantanal, and the exotarium. One of these remains standard setting, two are very good, and the fourth I would venture to say, is still at the very least clearly above average.
Based on the pictures I have found, I do not see how Wroclaw, overall, measures up. However, I have not found any current pictures on their great ape holdings. Perhaps this could illuminate things more.
On species count it is 27-12 in Wroclaw's favour, despite earlier suggestions its Great Ape outdoor enclosure is nowhere near as bad as Zurich's embarrassing orangutan cage, judging by the gallery photos. Zurich's cage was built in 1984 apparently, according to a previous post, but there were similar enclosures around in 1954! Intentions to replace don't count in this competition, it should have been replaced long ago in my opinion, before building other flash expensive exhibits as acknowledged by @antonmuster above.
This should be a win for Wroclaw as far as I can see.What I find surprising is that some who heavily criticised the orangutan cage on the gallery thread have voted for Zurich on primates ?!
The cage was being criticised in 2014, it is still there, a clear reason not to vote for Zurich, it renders Masaola irrelevant imo!
There are several people who have visited Wroclaw and voted for Zurich. Search primates in the Wroclaw gallery and you get an indication why.
We all agree that the Ape house in Zurich is outdated and that it is a shame for what is a world class zoo. But this is not a match of Zurich against e.g. Burgers Zoo, a zoo with only high quality primate enclosures or itself., Wroclaw does maybe not reach the low of Zurich Ape house outdoors (but people who have been to Wroclaw are most welcome to expand), but it does not reach the extreme highs of Zurich either and seems to have its own share of pore primate enclosures. Both the Gelada enclosure and the Masoala hall are in a league of their own in Zurich and I think that compensates here for the Ape house, given the competition.
It's fair enough, I guess Zurich always beats anyone regardless of a serious flaw! For me Wroclaw automatically wins 2-1 by its massive species advantage, but Masaola can't be counted as an advantage without considering the disgraceful orangutan enclosure you admitted to, there is no defence really, if Zurich wins this with such a disgusting great ape 'exhibit' we may as well stop the cup now!!
As I mentioned Zurich won't beat anyone regardless its flaw, with primates it would most probably lose against San Diego, Burgers' Zoo, Chester, Gaiazoo, possibly Frankfurt and probably a number of others. You care a lot about species numbers, I don't, and that is fine. Wroclaw does not seem to be a great primate zoo (but please people who have been to Wroclaw, enter the debate!) and that is why many people vote for Zurich. Zurich has 2 huge advantages and one huge disadvantage together with multiple average to very good enclosures. Wroclaw has looks to have it's own lows and highs, but not as high (and possibly) not as low as Zurich.
For me nothing is as low as Zurich's orangutan cage, it is disgraceful and I suspect everyone voting for Zurich has voted on the zoo's reputation or just coz its Zurich so Zurich must win and the wonderful Masaola beats anything?! That orangutan cage is shocking, imo!! Read your comments on that photo thread again @lintworm you admit the orangutan prison is s..t!!
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