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ZooChat Cup Group A: North Carolina vs Los Angeles

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 11 Aug 2019.

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Los Angeles vs North Carolina: Ectotherms

Poll closed 14 Aug 2019.
  1. Los Angeles 3-0 North Carolina

    17.4%
  2. Los Angeles 2-1 North Carolina

    82.6%
  3. North Carolina 2-1 Los Angeles

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. North Carolina 3-0 Los Angeles

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    All right, let’s kick off the 2019 ZooChat Cup.

    The zoos: plucky 2018 underdog Los Angeles vs North Carolina. This match is timed to conclude at approximately 10PM Chicago time on Tuesday 14 August..

    The topic: Ectotherms. Remember that this category includes reptiles, amphibians, fish and invertebrates.

    You’ll note that rather than the traditional two poll choices you have four. You can award all three points to a zoo, if you think one is miles ahead of the other. But if you think the match-up is closer than that you can split your votes 2-1. The points have a dual purpose, because not only do they decide the winner of each match, the percentages will break ties for progression to the knock-out rounds.

    Other than that, the rules remain the same:
    • Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting.
    • All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.
    Edit: Forgot my tags. Let’s start with @nczoofan , @snowleopard , @ANyhuis , @sooty mangabey , @DavidBrown and @jayjds2 . This is more or less a random list of people I know have visited one or the other zoo, and who are encouraged to get the debate rolling. If you don’t want to be tagged in future just let me know. :)
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2019
  2. TZDugong

    TZDugong Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    An interesting category and as someone who has visited the LA Zoo I feel obliged to give my opinions on their ecotherm holdings. Los Angeles is very lucky to get this category as it’s one of their strongest areas.

    The bulk of their collection is in the LAIR complex, which is one of, if not the best reptile house I have ever been to. It’s comprised of two buildings, the larger house is primarily for Rainforest animals while the second, smaller building contains desert reptiles from the south-west USA. The exhibits are all stunning with huge well-planted exhibits and floor to ceiling windows. The collection is fairly extensive, with great species like the Gray’s Monitor And Chinese Giant Salamanders.

    As for other reptile exhibits there’s a nice outside False Gharial exhibit near LAIR as well as outside exhibits for native California species like radiated tortoises and small amphibians in the Rainforest of the Americas zone.

    I’m not completely sure about North Carolina’s reptile exhibits but going on the strength of La’s reptile collection I’m going to originally cast my vote 2-1 for LA.
     
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  3. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

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    I haven't been to either of these zoos (or almost any in the competition...) but Los Angeles' LAIR surely beats North Carolina hands-down.

    Here's a 2015 review of the zoo, where it sounds like they have a good collection of North American herptiles but little else ectotherm-wise: Blospz's North Carolina Zoo Review - May 2015 [North Carolina Zoo]

    I'm voting for Los Angeles.
     
  4. TheGerenuk

    TheGerenuk Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Los Angeles is clearly leading with its incredible LAIR complex, while North Carolina only has a few reptile exhibits. My vote goes to the former for 3-0.
     
  5. Coelacanth18

    Coelacanth18 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

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    Based on photos and the review from @blospz it seems like North Carolina has some good displays and its collection of native ectotherms is commendable. That being said, LAIR not only puts LA in a top tier for this category, but LA actively breeds many species and cooperates with countless zoos, including many internationally. Both are involved in conservation work for ectotherms, but North Carolina's website shows a lot more than LA's.

    After some waffling back and forth, I came close to 3-0 for Los Angeles, but have fallen on giving NC the benefit of the doubt and going 2-1 for Los Angeles instead.
     
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  6. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Without intending to encourage people to vote one way or the other, this component of decision-making - whether to award the winning zoo two or three votes - is *very* important in matches like this where one zoo has what seems to be a commonly-acknowledged advantage. The margin in this one could ultimately decide which of these two zoos (if any) makes it to the knock-out rounds. Use that third vote wisely, folks!
     
  7. Coelacanth18

    Coelacanth18 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

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    I'm a little confused by this. Is considering the overall point total in your decisions included in the definition of "strategic voting"? Or is strategic voting where you only vote a certain way because it affects the point totals?
     
  8. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    No, sorry for causing confusion.

    I wasn’t suggesting people should be casting votes with a view to influencing the percentages, only that those percentages *increase* the power of their choice. Remember that which way you go is important, but don’t let that fact alone decide for you how to vote. Does that make more sense?
     
  9. Coelacanth18

    Coelacanth18 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

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    I believe so.

    I've also reflected on the fact that even though NC has some good points, LA is a pretty clear winner still so I'm changing to 3-0 for Los Angeles.
     
  10. jayjds2

    jayjds2 Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    I think I like NC’s exhibits a bit better, but LA cinches the deal overall with more exhibits and a much, much larger. In addition they have proved beneficial by importing new species from Australia as well as making deals with Moscow Zoo to bring uncommon species to the US, making LA the clear winner.
     
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  11. sooty mangabey

    sooty mangabey Well-Known Member

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    LA’s is one of the – or possibly the – best reptile houses I have ever seen. In a fairly unremarkable zoo, it, alone, is absolutely remarkable.
     
  12. nczoofan

    nczoofan Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Let me preface this by saying, NC Zoo is my home zoo. Its one of the best zoos I have visited, not due to its massive collection but due to its focus on amazing exhibits. It has some of the best exhibits for chimp, polar bear, giraffe, elephant, rhino, baboon and more. Yet it also has some of the best and biggest exhibits for ectotherms of any zoo I have seen. Below I'll show a few examples of these, although I do agree with the prevailing opinion that Los Angeles does have great exhibits as well and a larger collection. It seems like most have not been to the NC Zoo, so this will give you a basic runthrough.

    Desert Dome:
    One of three major exhibits for ectotherms. Their are 3 large open air exhibits as are seen below. The rest of the exhibits are smaller and are set into the rockwork. The exhibits are for the most part pretty large, with the open air exhibits among the largest I have seen. The exhibit holds about 30 species of reptile, that can change pretty frequently. Some species that can be seen include: pancake tortoise, ornate uromastyx, frilled dragon, spiny-tailed monitor, sidewinder, beaded lizard, gila monster, colorado river toad, desert pupfish, blue tounged skink, desert tortoise and eastern collared lizard.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Streamside:
    • A complex for species native to North Carolina that is made up of two buildings. The western building is home to 3 exhibits. The first is seen below and it is a tank for a variety of native freshwater fish and river cooter. The next two exhibits are for hellbender and also hold 7 species of shiner.
    • The second building in the complex has exhibits for a variety of native reptiles with floor to ceiling displays. The species list includes spotted turtle, cottonmouth, pygmy rattlesnake, timber rattlesnake, copperhead, eastern rat snake and eastern fence lizard.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Cypress Swamp:
    • The last major exhibit for ectotherms. The highlight of this complex are two massive American alligator exhibits, set in a bald cypress dominated swamp. Their are also two large exhibits for alligator snapping turtle, three salamander exhibits, eastern indigo snake, carolina gopher frog, tiger salamander and eastern hognose.
    [​IMG]
    Besides these complexes their are only a few more ectotherm exhibits. Their are two frog exhibits inside the aviary for panamanian golden frog and 3 species of dart frog. Their is also an exhibit which has a honeybee colony behind glass and an outdoor pollinator garden for them.

    One last thing I always like to mention is conservation projects. The zoo actively participates in breeding and reintroducing puerto rican crested toad, carolina gopher frog, and ornate chorus frog. They also do monthly studies on hellbender in western North Carolina and on pine barrens tree frog in the eastern part of the state.

    So overall their are about 65-70 species of ectotherm on display at the moment. This is less than Los Angeles has obviously and since they also have great exhibit quality I am gonna have to go 2:1 LA:NC. In 4 years when Asia opens my answer may be different with outdoor exhibits for komodo dragon (temporarily going into the desert building in the meantime), chinese alligator and a building with plenty of other ectotherm exhibits. Shortly after that Australia should open with even more ecotherm exhibits.
     
  13. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    The above post from is exactly the sort of contribution that I hope will make this Cup work. Thanks @nczoofan .

    I haven’t been to either zoo but I’m going with a 2:1 ratio as well on the strength of nczoofan’s post. I particularly like that NCZ displays local fauna and what seems like a fairly unique habitat theme.

    LAIRites - what can LA provide in answer to nczoofan to win back the third vote?
     
  14. nczoofan

    nczoofan Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Being located in the state with the 2nd highest number of native Amphibians and 5th highest density of herps does have it positives :D Even a lot of smaller collections around here (NC Museum of Sciences, Museum of Life and Science and Greensboro Science Center) all have large herp collections relative to their size.
     
  15. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

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    I must admit that a casual glance had this as 3-0 in favour of Los Angeles, but the extensive work done by @nczoofan changes that to 2-1. Great reading material!
     
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  16. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I didn't get tagged ;)

    Even though I personally disagree with LA's place in this challenge in the first place (I mean, NC isn't obscure enough to be discounted but Sedgwick County and Houston are?) I'll be voting 2-1 in favor of LA. LAIR is one of the top three herp houses I've seen in the US (with Fort Worth's MOLA and Atlanta's SSS being top tier as well) and they have one of the best collections in the US for reptiles. Not all of their enclosures are great-- the Matamata for instance is kind of bad-- but in general they provide excellent habitats. I personally love that one building focuses on mostly exotic species, which the second focuses on American desert dwellers. They have a few excellent outdoor pens as well. Additionally, the fact that they have such prolific breeding programs that provide many other collections both nationally and internationally with their oddball species further clinches their victory.

    I do want to give credit where credit is do, however, and give NC a point for their fantastic native collection and clearly excellent exhibitry. I've not visiting this zoo yet, but I certainly hope to in the nearish future.

    ~Thylo
     
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  17. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

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    Never fear, you will be. I just figured nobody wants to get picked on every time. :p

    For the record, deciding on the final two spots came down to LA, NC, Sedgwick County, Houston and Cincinnati.

    I went for game balance - one zoo noted for its collection, the other for its exhibits. LA won out over Cincinnati on the strength of its prominent location and strong performance in the American Cup last year. NC, Sedgwick and Houston all seemed relatively equally-known on the forums, with NC perhaps just slightly ahead. It’s strengths (sweeping ungulate and carnivore exhibits) and its weaknesses (imposed partly by its narrow focus on fauna from only two continents) also made it an interesting zoo to include.
     
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  18. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    I see, I thought you were tagging every member you knew had been to each zoo who was participating.

    Well I do think LA deserves the spot more than Cincinnati ;) Understandable rationale in any case.

    ~Thylo
     
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  19. TheGerenuk

    TheGerenuk Well-Known Member 5+ year member

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    Final score:

    Los Angeles beats North Carolina 50-19
     
  20. Astrotom3000

    Astrotom3000 Well-Known Member 10+ year member

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    Dang, 2nd time I missed out on my home zoo being represented in a Zoo cup.

    As much as I love the NC Zoo, I can still see why LA won this round. Oh well, better luck next time.