I had initially intended to complete each group before moving on to the next one, but decided at the last minute that it would be more fun to cycle through each group before doubling back. What can I say? I'm capricious. We kick off Group B today with Detroit vs Berlin Zoo. The topic? Carnivores. As both matches today are European vs American zoos, both will be timed to conclude at around 10PM Chicago time. When the other Euro vs American contests happen in this group, both will be timed according to London time. The rules: You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner. Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting. All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.
I'm not going to vote quite yet, because I don't know a whole lot about Detroit at all, I hope some people that do know the collection better might be able to clear things up. I can post about Berlin's collection to get the conversation started, though. Note that I haven't visited in three years and that that was a very hectic day, so please correct me if I'm wrong about anything! Berlin Zoo currently has 26 carnivore species, most of them spread between 3 major areas - a carnivore house, a group of bear enclosures containing some old grottoes, and a group of Pinniped enclosures. Carnivore house: The carnivore house, which I understand is (at least partially) closed at the moment, is a fairly traditional historical European carnivore house, with an interesting lineup of species. The lions have a decent outdoor enclosure, and so do a few other species (vontsira, boky, tayra, ocelot and jaguarundi have decent outdoor aviaries and visible indoor exhibits). The jaguarundi indoor enclosure is especially pleasant. If I remember correctly fennec fox, rusty-spotted cat, sand cat and dwarf mongoose are all indoors-only but I can't remember any big flaws there. Downstairs is a nocturnal section, which is where the kinkajou are kept in a fairly decent (all-indoors) enclosure. The leopards got the short end of the stick, though, and have very little to do both indoors and outdoors, with hardly any height and climbing possibilities outdoor and not a lot of ground space either. The indoor exhibits for lions and leopards leave little to the imagination and appear fairly empty, but are probably very efficient to clean, which is a good thing - they might be a tad small? African lion Persian leopard Fennec fox Jaguarundi Ocelot Rusty-spotted cat Arabian sand cat Dwarf mongoose Meerkat Ring-tailed vontsira Narrow-striped boky Tayra Kinkajou Overall I'd say the house has a fairly pleasant atmosphere, and while not all enclosures are perfect I definitely wouldn't call it a bad carnivore house either - And they're working on renovating the entire house as we speak, so I imagine some of its flaws will be taken care of. Bear exhibits and surroundings: This is where my memory is starting to fade a little bit, and where it makes it obvious that I need to visit again soon. The wild dog and coati enclosures don't have much to do with the bear grottoes but are next to them so I included them in this group, but at least the wild dog exhibit is fairly spacious and good - I don't remember the coati enclosure that well, but on the few pictures I can find it looks fairly average. The bears are a bit more mixed: it used to be a group of grottoes that have now been turned into slightly larger enclosures, and definitely either the sloth or Asiatic black bears (I unfortunately can't remember which) currently have a good new enclosure. The other bear enclosures are unfortunately all still grottoes and still to the smaller side - but at least they look decent, and the rock work is nicely done. I don't remember much about the ('Arctic') wolves' enclosure, but I think it was fairly average in size. African wild dog South American coati Asiatic black bear Indian sloth bear Polar bear Wolf I find it hard to draw conclusions on this area since I don't remember how large all the seperate enclosures were, and which species were where. I do remember thinking some of the bear exhibits were a bit small. The wild dog enclosure and the newer bear enclosure are both good, though. Pinniped enclosures: A good-sized and interesting otter enclosure doesn't have a whole lot to do with the rest of this area, but is located next to it so I've decided to group it with these. The actual pinniped enclosures make up 3 enclosures, one each for the remaining species. The sea lion enclosure is fairly good for European standards (granted, as mentioned in a few other threads recently those aren't very high), and doubles as the tank the sea lion show is held in. It has an underwater viewing area next to a pool the sea lions can dive in, along with an area with shallow water and quite a bit of land. The other two ponds are smaller, and the one for seals is still okay but the one for fur seals isn't that great - both appear fairly shallow and perhaps a bit too small for their inhabitants. Asian small-clawed otter California sea lion Cape fur seal Harbour seal This area could do with a bit more space, and perhaps most notably a bit more water area and depth, but overall is fairly pleasant. I don't know how, but perhaps downsizing the collection from 3 to 2 species (and combining the two smaller tanks) would already do wonders - though I'm not sure how much of the original rock work and exhibit shapes they're allowed to change. Pandas: I haven't been to the zoo yet since they received pandas a few years ago, so I can't comment on this too much except that on pictures the enclosures for them look very good, and of very high standard. Giant panda Conclusion: Overall, I think Berlin has a fairly good carnivore collection, but exhibits for them aren't always that great - they're definitely working on improvement though, and I'm very excited to see what the future will have in store. I could definitely see another zoo with a few rarities and an overall higher standard of enclosures beating Berlin - I just don't know enough about Detroit to know if Detroit can be that zoo.
As one of the (probably pretty few) people who has visited Detroit quite recently, I’ll give a rundown of their carnivore collection. Let’s start with Bears, and this is a pretty strong area for Detroit. They don’t have many species, only Grizzly and Polar, but they make up for it in exhibitory. The Polar Bear exhibit is stunning, probably one of the top 5 in the world. It has three separate “zones”, a huge grassy meadow, a rocky pebbled area with a small freshwater pool and a massive 190,000 gallon pool with an underwater viewing tunnel. The signage is excellent, the viewing areas are great, and as these things go it’s pretty good at immersing the visitor into thinking they stumbled across a Polar Bear in the Arctic. The other Bear exhibit is a reconstructed grotto, that when I was there held three species of bear (Black Bear, Grizzly And one I cant remember), but now they’ve all been combined into one larger exhibit for Grizzly Bears. The exhibit looks pretty nice, with good size, grass some enrichment, but I think it should also be commended that instead of continuing to exhibit multiple species of bears in inadequate exhibits they improved the habitat for the remaining inhabitants even at the cost of losing a couple species, something that doesn’t seem to always be the case when it comes to a certain other Zoo in this matchup. We then move onto larger carnivores and again the animals have pretty strong exhibits. The Tiger exhibit was good when I visited it, although it was nothing incredible, but the Tigers are getting a major renovation that will triple the size of the enclosure and should be opening very soon. The Lion exhibit is pretty much the same as the Tiger exhibit, it’s still sort of a Grotto, but it’s definitely adequate for the animals needs. The Wolf exhibit is easily the best out of the 3 exhibits, at 2 acres it is massive and is densely planted, which admittedly can make it hard to see the Wolf’s. Finally, we have the “other” carnivores, which still have good exhibits. The first of these is the Arctic Fox, which has a good, albeit slightly forgettable exhibit, although it does give you a cool look-out at the polar bears. Also in the Arctic Ring Of Life section of the zoo are Gray and Harbour seals, again in a good exhibit. Viewing is excellent as there is an above ground section that looks down onto the seals large pool, as well as an underwater viewing tunnel they share with the Polar Bears in a unique predator-prey exhibit. In the American Grasslands section of the zoo there are two very similar exhibits for Wolverine and Bush Dog, both are decently sized, well planted exhibits that give excellent views of their inhabitants due to the grotto-like look of the exhibits. Near the tigers there is also a great Red Panda exhibit, it has multiple, massive trees for them to climb and a large land area as well. The final “other” exhibit is the pick of the bunch, a brilliant North American River Otter exhibit. There’s a large pool for the otters to swim in, a large, moated, well planted land area that gives great views of the otters, crystal clear underwater viewing and even a slide that the otters can use( unfortunately I didn’t see them use it). There a lot of really good Otter exhibits but I think this is my favourite one, and it’s an absolute joy to look at. Overall, carnivores aren’t really one of Detroit’s strongest areas, but they’re still pretty good in this department. The collection is obviously the problem, only 12 species (14 less than Berlin) and only a couple are unusual (Wolverines and Bush Dogs), but the exhibitory is great, with no bad exhibits. From viewing photos and also reading @Vision ‘s excellent post, I’m not convinced on the quality of their exhibits, and while their collection is better, I’m giving the slight 2-1 edge to Detroit. Definitely willing to have my opinion changed however.
Interesting match. I think for now, based on @Vision’s breakdown of Berlin, I’m going 2-1 Detroit based on the latter’s superior quality of exhibits. Detroit’s collection may be roughly half the size, but Detroit makes up for its smaller collection with superb exhibits. The species Detroit keeps are: Grizzly bear Polar bear Wolverine African lion Red panda Harbor seal Gray seal Gray wolf North American river otter Amur tiger (exhibit opening soon) Arctic fox Bush dog Bear grottos are most zoo’s weakness but Detroit has converted theirs into a great exhibit today. Conscientiously choosing to phase out species for a greater quality of welfare, Detroit combined three exhibits into one for grizzly bears, which now have more room than I have seen in many other zoos (rivaling Saint Louis’s new exhibit). The main exhibit lacks any features of the traditional American grotto, being lushly planted and a very nice exhibit overall. Wolverine are rarely-seen in zoos and Detroit has the best exhibit I’ve seen for them. It is much more massive than any others and gives the animal access to trees and other natural objects. The last part is vital because I’ve never seen one climb before but it is clear here that they do. The exhibit for lions is probably the least interesting of the zoo’s carnivore exhibits, and as such I won’t dwell on it. Detroit’s red panda exhibit is innovative and one of the most unique and largest pair of exhibits I’ve seen for the species. There are two large exhibits, split in the middle by a visitor bridge that allows visitors to the zoo to be in the treetops among the pandas. These exhibits opened last year and were some of my favorites in the zoo. The animals were all to be found high in the trees. Here the exhibit is shown in winter, but last summer it was lush. Renovated in the last few years, the zoo’s North American river otter exhibit is typical of the species, but relatively large, with an entire building dedicated to their underwater viewing. Once again, Detroit has an exhibit that’s the largest I’ve seen for a species: Bush dog. Nothing too special in premise, it’s just a large and lush exhibit for another rarely-seen species. In 2015, a 2 acre exhibit opened for gray wolves. Surely one of the best wolf exhibits around, there are ample viewing opportunities and I enjoyed this exhibit a lot. And last but certainly not least is the zoo’s capstone exhibit: the Arctic Ring of Life. Entirely dedicated to carnivores, this 4 acre complex has exhibits for polar bears, arctic fox, and two seal species. Mimicking various parts of the arctic, this complex provides spacious exhibits for all inhabitants and was another one of my favorite parts of the zoo. There is a lot of viewing and interpretive elements, a long walk-through underwater tunnel through the seal exhibit, and overall it was a pleasant set of exhibits I revisited a couple times before leaving the zoo. All in all, Detroit is fantastic on all fronts for its carnivores. I will give a point to Berlin due to its great collection, but as far as exhibitry, Detroit seems to blow Berlin out of the water.
I wish I could like this post twice. Your thoughts are very close to mine, and thanks for all the great pictures you provided.
I'm conflicted here. I haven't been to Detroit, but clearly they have the superior exhibitry. Berlin, which I have visited, clearly has the superior collection, though. What makes this even harder is the fact that the carnivore house was closed on my visit, so I could only see a handful of the species that had outdoor enclosure still visible. Of the ones I saw, the only one I found to be bad was the Polar Bear grotto, though none of the enclosures compare to Detroit's from Jay's photos. I think it is worth noting that the carnivore house is closed for renovations to increase the husbandry standards as well. Right now I'm sort of split down the middle. ~Thylo
It should however be noted that on the current plan the Carnivore house in Berlin would still give the Jaguars and Leopards the short end of the stick, even though it will be better than it was. As it was really poor. Berlin's Giant Panda enclosures are very impressive outdoors, possibly the best in Europe, indoors is rather boring... The Pinniped section in Berlin is one of my favourite parts of the zoo, for some reason I really like the Sea lion pool, old fashioned but spacious and always lots of activity.... Based on the Detroit description, I am split down the middle for now as well though
It's a classic 2-1 case, but which way? I'm torn, but I feel like rewarding excellence so will tilt to Detroit for now.
Looking at the replies here ad in other posted threads so far, I think that if there'll ever be ZooChat Cup - Round 3, one great European invention should be added - tie
A key point to consider is whether Berlin's Carnivore House counts or not. I was just there a few days ago and the whole thing is under construction, including the outside areas and the African Lions. I did an entire loop of the area and there is literally nothing to see in terms of animals and so that eliminates at least a dozen species from the collection. I say 2-1 Detroit Zoo...for now.
Just because it's closed to the public temporarily doesn't mean the species kept there don't count. The carnivore house should count here. ~Thylo
Didn't stop you from counting all the offshow hoofstock at San Diego Safari Park during the last USA cup, unless my memory fails me
I have no idea what you are talking about, but you could well be correct. My brain is 'addled' from seeing 95 zoos in a month. If anyone wants to include off-show species, or animals that cannot be seen by regular visitors, then that's totally fine with me.
It is a hard choice for me this one. In Berlin, I think the giant panda exhibit is one of the best I have seen. I also that really like the inside. Very nice design of modern clear architecture. Although I can imagine some would find it a little cold. The bear complex has ok exhibits, but nothing special in my complex and especially the sealine pool I also like very much. And then there is the question of the carnivore house. The collection there is tremendous and also the design plans look really promising. Most species are still there and sometimes can be viewed ( last year when I was there), I did consider it partially. For Detroit, the exhibits look great form the pictures especially the Artic Ring. Although the collection is significantly smaller. So currently in hanging slightly to Berlin because of its stellar giant panda exhibit, but it's a hard choice to make.
I'm going 2-1 for Detroit. The species line-ups are pretty ordinary for the most part in both zoos (personally speaking, of course), so the animals' living conditions are easily the most important factor. Berlin still gets one vote because it has more species and they do include a lot more "not as ordinary" species, but I can't see it beating Detroit overall.
I've never visited Detroit, but I'll throw in a curve-ball. Detroit Zoo organises biannual adoption drives onsite, which have now rehomed over 25,000 cats, dogs, and other rescued pets. To put that into perspective, I could build outstanding enclosures for every captive lion in the world and Detroit would still have improved more carnivores' lives. That's amazing! More generally, Detroit's dedication to animal welfare is easily as impressive as Berlin's vast collection. Detroit Zoo founded and operates a world-renowned welfare research institute (CZAW) and its international conferences are inspiring a paradigm shift towards evidence-based practice in US zoos (EAZA is copying them next year). The exhibits aren't just better – Detroit's global leadership, social responsibility, and all-round care is exceptional. It deserves a 3-0 win.
