The topic: Ectotherms. Didn’t St Louis name their invert exhibit after Monsanto? I might just give them a point for having a sense of humour. The rules: You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner. Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting. All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.
Both zoos are strong in this category. I just visited Frankfurt Zoo on July 27th, as part of my 95-zoo, 33-day European trek. There is an 'Exotarium' that has the main floor as an Aquarium and the top level as a Reptile House, with many ectotherms present. I counted 69 reptile/amphibian species and 12 invertebrate species on the top floor (all in decent exhibits) with the bottom floor a bit of a disaster as it was undergoing renovations this summer. I don't have a species list for fish as I encountered two empty tanks, unlabeled exhibits and a general sense of disarray. Frankfurt Zoo has the famous Grzimek House, which is almost entirely mammals, but there are two species present (Smooth-sided Toad, Veiled Chameleon) that are ectotherms. There are a couple of terrariums in the Small Monkey House that possibly contain ectotherms as well and so the zoo has approximately 85 reptile/amphibian/insect species, plus whatever fish are on the bottom floor of the Exotarium. I visited Saint Louis Zoo in 2010 and 2014 and the ectotherm collection is massively impressive. The Reptile House is my second favourite ever (behind Fort Worth's MOLA) because it is set in a beautiful, historic, architecturally stunning 1927 building and there are close to 100 species on display to the public in decent exhibits. Saint Louis also has my second favourite Insectarium (behind Cincinnati) and I counted 64 invertebrate species on display during my last visit. Many of those exhibits are quite innovative, plus there is a Butterfly Conservatory dome with another bunch of invertebrate species to probably push the zoo close to 100 invertebrate species in total. In terms of fish, the zoo has a spectacular Mississippi-themed tank in the River's Edge zone. Reptiles - Saint Louis wins Amphibians - Saint Louis wins Insects - Saint Louis wins Exhibit quality - Saint Louis wins Architecture - Saint Louis wins Fish - Frankfurt wins Part of me is tempted to vote 3-0 for Saint Louis, but I'm giving Frankfurt the benefit of the doubt in terms of its aquatic section on the bottom floor of the Exotarium once renovations are complete. Saint Louis probably has around 200 reptile/amphibian/insect species in comparison to Frankfurt's 85, plus Saint Louis has slightly better exhibits and a gorgeous Reptile House. However, Frankfurt possibly has a better display of fish...does anyone know if the Exotarium renovation is now finished? 2-1 Saint Louis Zoo is my current vote
I'm putting in a temporary vote for Saint Louis, I know nothing about Frankfurt. But here is what St. Louis has got: Herps: Saint Louis has easily the best reptile house I have ever seen. It is from 1927, with a much newer and more modern inside. Each exhibit is a beautiful, well planted terrarium, ranging in size from average to excellent. In addition to the incredible reptile house, it has a few other herp species scattered around the grounds. Here is the collection: American Alligator Chinese Alligator Galapagos Tortoise Aladabra Tortoise South American Yellow-Footed Tortoise Baja California Spiny-Tailed Iguana San Esteban Island Chuckwalla Common Chuckwalla Gila Monster Black-Headed Python Ocellate Mountain Viper Mexican Lance-Headed Rattlesnake Armenian Viper Puff Adder Caspian Cobra Black Mamba Boelen's Python Scheltopusik Iranian Mountain Viper Arizona Ridge-Nosed Rattlesnake Iranian Leopard Gecko Eastern Long-Nosed Viper Santa Catalina Island Rattlesnake Egyptian Tortoise Eyed Skink Alligator Snapping Turtle Two-lined Mud Turtle Western Pygmy Rattlesnake Eastern Hellbender Black-Tailed Horned Pitviper Fan-Si-Pan Horned Pitviper Ethiopian Mountain Adder Panamanian Golden Frog Lemur Leaf Frog Western Massasauga Western Foxsnake Bullsnake Western Cottonmouth Ozark Hellbender Rowley's Palm-Pitviper Spotted Turtle Black-Breasted Leaf Turtle Yellow-Blotched Palm-Pitviper Tokaren Pit Viper or Tokar Habu Kaiser's Spotted Newt Giant Asian Pond Turtle Yellow-Headed Temple Turtle Reticulated Python Dwarf Caiman Mexican Beaded Lizard Asian Narrow-Headed Softshell Turtle Lesser Sundas Python Henkel's Leaf-Tailed Gecko Tomato Frog King Cobra Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake Golf Coast Box Turtle Madagascar Tree Boa West African Gaboon Viper Four-Horned Chameleon Central American Bushmaster Southern Cantil Puerto Rican Crested Toad Pacific Horned Frog Mission Golden-Eyed Tree Frog Green Anaconda Pig-Nosed Turtle Long's Forest Dragon Black Tree Monitor Utila Island Iguana Malayan Gharial Dumeril's Ground Boa Green Tree Monitor Mountain Pitviper Green Toad Pichincha Poison Frog Green-And-Black Poison Dart Frog Mountain Chicken Frog Haitian Giant Anole Vietnamese Long-Nosed Snake Mangshan Pitviper Jamaican Boa New Caledonian Giant Gecko Jamaican Iguana Northern Spider Tortoise Emerald Tree Boa Andean Marsupial Frog Oviedo Fire Salamander Tentacled Snake Prehensile-Tailed Skink Gray Tree Frog Bullsnake Mission Golden-Eyed Tree Frog Northern Map Turtle Southeast Asian Box Turtle Red-Bellied Short-Necked Turtle Fish: Saint Louis is unfortunately lacking in fish species. A few areas have fish tanks, and there is a stingray touch tank, but that's about it, and most of it's unsigned: Cownose Ray Southern Stingray Bonnethead Shark Whitespotted Bamboo Shark Boseman's Rainbowfish Harlequin Rasbora Giant Danio Pink Skunk Clownfish Six-lined Wrasse Blue-Green Chromis Lemon Barb Zebra Tilapia Spotted Tilapia Bluegill Pumkinseed Common Shiner Pallid Surgeon Largemouth Bass Shortnose Gar Common Carp Bighead Carp Black Buffalo Inverts: Saint Louis has the Monsanto Insectarium, easily the best invert section I have seen in a zoo. Each enclosure is natural in appearance and none of the animals are hard to see. Here is the list: Pillbug (Armadillium vulgare) Giant Desert Centipede (Scolopendra heros) Red-Knee Tarantula (Brachypelma smithi) *unidentified praying mantis Leopard Slug (Limax maximus) European Red Slug (Arion rufus) Emperor Scorpion (Pandinus imperator) *various unidentified caterpillars Giant Cockroach (Blaberus giganteus) Toothed Globe Snail (Mesodon zaletus) *unidentified Narceus millipede Cave Cricket (Ceuthophilus gracilipes) Flat Rock Scorpion (Hadogenes troglodytes) *unidentified water strider Missouri Tarantula (Aphonopelma hentzi) Red Backed Darkling Beetle (Eleodes suturalis) Darkling Beetle (Zophobas morio) Tiger Centipede (Scolopendra polymorpha) Desert Hairy Scorpion (Hadrurus arizonensis) *unidentified velvet ant *unidentified bark scorpion Arizona Blonde Tarantula (Aphonopelma chaliodes) *unidentified black widow Brow Recluse (Loxosceles reclusa) House Fly (Musca domestica) Long-Bodied Cellar Spider (Pholcus phalangiodes) Book Louse (Liposcelis corrodens) *unidentified cockraoch (German?) *unidentified bag worm Carpenter Bee (Xylocopa virginica) Golden Silk Spider (Hephila clavipes) Burgundy Goliath Birdeater (Theraphosa stirmi) Trinidad Chevron Tarantula (Psalmopoeus cambridgei) Malaysian Orange Huntsman (Heteropoda davidbowie) Deaths Head Cockroach (Blaberus cranifer) Robust Camel Cricket (Udeopsylla robusta) Asian Millipede (Thyropygus pachyurus) Hide Beetle (Dermestes maculatus) Mealworm Beetle (Tenebrio molitor) Leech (Haemopis marmorata) Silkworm (Bombyx mori) Honeybee (Apis millifera) *unidentified corals Domino Roach (Therea petiveriana) Giant Prickly Stick Insect (Extatosoma tiaratum) Jade-Headed Beetle (Eudicella gralii) *unidentified ferocious water bug Dead Leaf Mantis (Deroplatys lobata) American House Spider (Parasteatoda tepidariorum) *unidentified saltwater aquatic snail *unidentified Clibanarius hermit crab Rose Bubble Tip Anemone (Entacmaea quadricolor) Striped Ground Cricket (Allonemobius fasciatus) Bess Beetle (Odontotaenius disjunctus) Robust Conehead (Neoconocephalus robustus) Hissing Cockroach (Gromphadorhina portentosa) Giant Spiny Walkingstick (Eurycantha calcarata) Leaf Cutter Ant (Atta cephalotes) *Unidentified jumping stick Giant Walkingstick (Phobaeticus serratipes) Forbes' Silkmoth (Rothschildia lebeau) Paper Kite (Iden leuconoe) Common Mormon (Papilio polytes) Thoas Swallowtail (Papilio thoas) Buckeye (Junonia coenia) Orange Immigrant (Catopsilia scylla) Owl Butterfly (Caligo atreus) Great Southern White (Ascia monuste) Scarlet Mormon (Papilio rumanzovia) Emerald Swallowtail (Papilio palinurus) Blue Mountain Swallowtail (Papilio ulysses) Ruby-Spotted Swallowtail (Papilio anchisiades) White Peacock (Anartia jatrophae) Great Eggfly (Hypolimnas bolina) Starry Night Cracker (Hamadryas loadamia) Gray Cracker (Hamadryas febura) Red Cracker (Hamadryas amphinome) Olivewing (Nessea aglaura) Grecian Shoemaker (Catonephele numilia) Mocker Swallowtail (Papilio dardanus) Orchard Swallowtail (Papilio demodocus) Emperor Swallowtail (Papilio ophidicephalus) Malay Lacewing (Cethosia hypsea) Banded Purplewing (Myscelia cyaniris) Clipper (Parthenos sylvia lilacinus) Moon Moth (Argema mittrei) Purple Mort Blue (Eryphanis polyxena) Cyndno Longwing (Heliconius cyndo) Red Postman (Heliconius erato) Sara Longwing (Heliconius sara) Hybrid Longwing (Heliconius cyndo x melpomene) Postman (Heliconius melopomene) Doris Longwing (Heliconius doris) Herwit's Longwing (Heliconius hewitsoni) Zebra Longwing (Heliconius charitonius) Ismenius Longwing (Heliconius ismenius) Crusier (Vindula dejone) Silverspot (Dione juno) Julia (Dryas julia) Creamy-Spotted Tigerwing (Tithorea tarracina) Tiger Longwing (Heliconius hecate) Mosiac (Colobura dircei) Autumn Leaf (Doleschallia bisaltide) Jazzy Leafwing (Hypno clymenestra) Mexican Sister (Adelpha fessonia) Rusty-Tipped Page (Siproeta epaphua) Atlas Moth (Attacus atlas) Numata Longwing (Heliconius numata) Glassy Tigerwing (Tithorea harmonia) *unidentified lady beetle *unidentified Canthon dung beetle *unidentified Burying/Carrion beetle Colorado Potato Beetle (Leptinotarsa decemlineata) Japanese Beetle (Popillia japonica) Confused Flower Beetle (Tribolium confusum) Flamboyant Flower Beetle (Eudicella gralli) Common Burying Beetle (Nicrophorus martinatus) *unidentified ground beetle *unidentified ironclad beetle *unidentified red-backed darkling beetle Fighting Beetle (Xylotrupes gideon) In addition, there are a few more corals in the Children's Zoo. EDIT: Cross-post with snowleopard.
But wait @Brum, there's more! The Reptile House is hands down my favorite exhibit at Saint Louis and they got very lucky with this category, as I think it's their strongest one (also probably the one with fewest weaknesses). As @birdsandbats outlined, their collection is very impressive, and including off-display species it's even bigger than that. A big highlight in my view are their breathtaking collection of pitvipers (certainly one of the largest on the continent, if not *the* largest) with a particular focus on mountain pitvipers. They are one of the leading institutions for conservation work with this group of animals and their work with endangered Armenian vipers is well explained here: Center for Conservation in Western Asia | Saint Louis Zoo Another important conservation initiative they do locally is with hellbenders. They were the first facility in the world to breed Ozark hellbenders and are working with Missouri's state government to breed large numbers of them for eventual release. They have a 32-foot long simulated mountain stream behind the scenes in the Reptile House that is used for these breeding purposes. The initiative is explained here: Ron Goellner Center for Hellbender Conservation | Saint Louis Zoo They also hold and work with several other interesting and threatened species of herp, such as mountain chicken, tomistoma, Arakan forest turtle as well as several other Asian chelonians, Kaiser's newt, Puerto Rican crested toad, Mangshan pitviper, and Asian narrow-headed softshell turtle. As for invertebrates, they have done a lot of work with American burying beetles where they are one of only 4 AZA facilities breeding for release. That work is detailed here: Center for American Burying Beetle Conservation | Saint Louis Zoo. They also breed and maintain two species of Partula snail (nodosa and taeniata), joining only a small number of American zoos that participate in those efforts. As for the insectarium, I have seen both Cincinnati and Saint Louis; while I loved both of their insect houses, I like Saint Louis slightly more because I found more interactive for kids (which is great for an insect house), more creatively designed (Cincinnati feels more like a sterile maze), and they have a very cool view of their behind-the-scenes work through a glass window. You can actually see the containers full of burying beetles and other species they are breeding. As for fish, that is admittedly not a strong point for Saint Louis. Their Missouri river tank is very cool though, and kudos to them for including it in an exhibit complex that features elephants, rhinos, cheetahs, and other species that the average visitor cares way more about. I agreed overall with @snowleopard's analysis, but for now I'm voting 3-0 for Saint Louis because Saint Louis's weakness on fish isn't enough to pull it down to a 2-1 vote for me. That being said, I haven't been to Frankfurt and don't know much about it so I could potentially be persuaded to grant it a point.
I was already on the fence, as I admitted in my analysis above, but due to @Coelacanth18 and his information I'm changing my vote from 2-1 Saint Louis to 3-0 Saint Louis.
This feels like it might objectively be 3-0 to St. Louis, but I'm going with a subjective 2-1. I love Frankfurt's Exotarium, especially the charming external architecture, and it is undoubtedly a good Reptile House and Aquarium. Also, everyone should enjoy the free-roaming day geckos.
To answer your question. At the moment, there is no renovation in the aquarium, as in recent years, only the individual tanks have been redesigned, the last two are currently still in work, as you have seen. More precisely, they have been working on them since 2.5 years .. .it is a staff problem. But I was there 4 weeks ago and the two tanks look like they could be filled with water this year with some luck. I do not know which species of fish come in there. Unfortunately, the signage screens on the central building was still out of service. In the coming years, the entire house must be renovated and modernized, which will cost several million euros.Yesterday, the first annual report of the zoo released since 1993 was presented. As soon as I have it, maybe I can give you the exact stock numbers-I hope it contains a detailed species inventory.You forgot the Komodo dragons in the Grzimekhaus.
Arghhhh!! It's really hard to choose between 2-1 and 3-0 to St Louis... I'm going to go for 2-1 St Louis, although I certainly understand people who went for 3-0. I won't do fourteen points like on San Diego vs Beauval, but I think that although St Louis' fantastic ectotherms make it deserve a 3-0 win, Frankfurt's exhibits should also be applauded. They are all solid and certainly by no reckoning sub-standard, so I think I will have to keep my vote on 2-1 until someone manages to persuade me otherwise. The only thing I am feeling slightly guilty about is that this tie does matter quite a lot, so if St Louis does not romp to victory, it might not get through to the next round... I assume that there will be matches between Beauval and St Louis as well as San Diego and Frankfurt after this?
Some visuals for reference: Missouri River fish tank - River's Edge Exterior of Reptile House Reptile House - Center Garden and Asian Narrow-headed Softshell Turtle exhibit (with a sandy bottom as is appropriate for the species) Reptile House - Green Anaconda exhibit (with two floors of viewing) Reptile House - Black Mamba exhibit Reptile House - Armenian Viper exhibit Reptile House - Tortoise exhibit Reptile House - Crocodile exhibit Insectarium - Golden Silk Spider Exhibit Insectarium - example of educational display Exterior of Insectarium with Stag Beetle statue Photo credits to @Moebelle and @snowleopard and (for the last photo) @Blackduiker
Is St. Louis' reptile house really all that? I've never been but from photos it looks pretty basic for the most part. I mean it certainly has the historical and architectural elements people praise but enclosure-wise it looks like the quality varies pretty wildly from good to kind of poor. Examples: Giant tortoise indoors 1927 Reptile House - Tomistoma Exhibits (2) and Giant Tortoise Exhibit - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - Utila Island Iguana Exhibit - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - Yellow-Footed Tortoise Exhibit - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - 3 Exhibits - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - Rare Turtle Pools - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - Assorted Terrariums - ZooChat 1927 Reptile House - King Cobra Exhibit - ZooChat Surely none of that comes anywhere near the quality of LAIR, MOLA, or SSS? Still, the species list is undeniably amazing and those conservation efforts are worth the 2-1 vote from me. I'd still love to hear further arguments from the Frankfurt camp, though. ~Thylo
Ultimately it's a subjective question, but if you're asking me: yes, SLZ's reptile house really is all that, and yes, it surely does approach (and in some areas surpass) the quality of other top-notch reptile houses. I think it might help to have visited in person, but I've seen all of the enclosures you posted photos of and I don't think even one of them is below average. The sole exception might be that king cobra enclosure, although I actually remember them being in a different and larger enclosure than that. In general, most of the reptile house's enclosures are larger than at other zoos and are well-designed and planted. Some of the photos you posted, like the yellow-footed tortoise, tomistoma, and iguana enclosures actually look quite large and well-designed to me, even as they fail to communicate the actual full size. As for the giant tortoise enclosure (which is one of my photos), that is only their indoor/winter quarters (they have a decently-sized outdoor enclosure with a mud wallow as well) and that photo shows only a small fraction of its size. Their exhibits for giant tortoises are weaker than for their collection overall, but for my part I've been to many reptile houses at this point and I have yet to see one I liked better. Even LAIR, which I like very much, has its weak points (terrestrial species in vertically-biased enclosures, small collection, pathways and windows too easily overcrowded) and in a head-to-head contest between those two Saint Louis is an easy win in my view.
The enclosures for the Anaconda and Mamba clearly show where the major problem in the US attitude of reptiles is - too large species in too small tanks for them. And I've visited some of the largest and most famous reptile collections in the US, including Saint-Louis, and everywhere that was the case. Due to the fact that so many species have to be shown. So the reptile welfare in Frankfurt is significantly higher than Saint-Louis. The pool for the anaconda is ridiculous.
The mamba exhibit appears much larger in real life. The anaconda exhibit is huge but the pool is a little shallow.
Crocodilian, then. Those enclosures change species with some level of frequency, but the enclosures on either side of the giant tortoises always hold crocodilian species. Was the king cobra enclosure one of those? I really feel like I remember seeing it in a similarly planted but larger enclosure than that. If I were to design an anaconda exhibit I would also give them a deeper and larger pool, but I will note that the enclosure is possibly the largest I've seen here in the US. The word ridiculous I think is unnecessarily harsh. It has the depth to submerge its entire body and a lot of vertical space to climb up if it so chooses. If it's still there, I guess. Didn't realize it was gone.
Like you said, it's subjective, but I really can't wrap my head around how this average quality compares to this average quality in any way. But yes, the other houses still do have their problems. Though considering LAIR has roughly 70 species exhibited by my estimations I'm not sure how that is a small collection Regardless, I still do think St. Louis has the win based on the current arguments. I do hope to visit someday soon and see the collection and invertebrate house in particular myself. So odd situation but @jayjds2 said he's unlikely to make it on within the 48 hour period but wanted to say, "all the exhibits still exist? Just with different species" (via FB Messenger) Do with that what you will. ~Thylo
