Join our zoo community

ZooChat Cup Group F: Bronx vs Leipzig

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 29 Sep 2019.

?

Bronx vs Leipzig: Miscellaneous mammals

Poll closed 1 Oct 2019.
  1. Bronx 3-0 Leipzig

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Bronx 2-1 Leipzig

    51.4%
  3. Leipzig 2-1 Bronx

    45.7%
  4. Leipzig 3-0 Bronx

    2.9%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    12 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    3,288
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Bronx, Leipzig, miscellaneous mammals. How many mouse houses is a pangolin worth?

    Rules - you know them. Don’t break them.
     
  2. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    23 Feb 2019
    Posts:
    4,144
    Location:
    London
    Oh, a good many mouse houses I should think :)
     
  3. TZDugong

    TZDugong Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    17 Nov 2017
    Posts:
    1,121
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Maybe not if that Mouse House is at the Bronx:D.
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2019
    d1am0ndback likes this.
  4. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    23 Feb 2019
    Posts:
    4,144
    Location:
    London
  5. TheGerenuk

    TheGerenuk Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    8 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    2,870
    Location:
    Brampton, Ontario, Canada
    Alright @pangolin12 , let me guess why you voted 3-0 Leipzig.... they have pangolins.
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  6. nczoofan

    nczoofan Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    5 Jul 2018
    Posts:
    1,466
    Location:
    Texas
    I looked through my notes and realized that the mouse house was the one exhibit for which I did not really have a recent a species list. The most recent species list I could find was by @ThylacineAlive

    Mouse House:
    Degu
    African Pygmy Mouse
    Eurasian Harvest Mouse
    Green Acouchi
    Rock Cavy
    Harris's Antelope Squirrel
    Short-Eared Elephant-Shrew
    Damara Mole-Rat
    Long-Tailed Chinchilla
    Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
    Screaming Hairy Armadillo
    Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
    Malagasy Giant Rat
    Arabian Spiny Mouse
    Nile Rat
    California Mouse
    African Dormouse
    House Mouse
    Greater Egyptian Jerboa
    Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
    Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
    Fat-Tailed Gerbil
    Pallid Gerbil
    Bushy-Tailed Jird

    Besides the Mouse House:
    • Giant anteater
    • North american porcupine
    • Common treeshrew
    • Rodrigues flying fox
    • Indian flying fox
    • Cape Hyrax
    • Aardvark
    • linnaeus‘ two toed sloth
    Im sure I am missing some and their have been some species changes :)
     
    Brum and amur leopard like this.
  7. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    23 Feb 2019
    Posts:
    4,144
    Location:
    London
    OK, so basically, this competition is pangolin, koala and quoll vs a whole load of mice. :)
     
  8. nczoofan

    nczoofan Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    5 Jul 2018
    Posts:
    1,466
    Location:
    Texas
    Forgot to add black-tailed prairie dog and prehensile-tailed porcupine to the Bronx Zoo list.
     
  9. pangolin12

    pangolin12 Well-Known Member Premium Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    28 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    586
    Location:
    Doncaster
    Nothing beats a pangolin;)
     
  10. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member 15+ year member Premium Member

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    7,583
    Location:
    Abbotsford, B.C., Canada
    Both these zoos do well when it comes to miscellaneous mammals, with many mice, rats and bats on the species lists provided above. Bronx deserves a point for its famous 'Mouse House', but Leipzig has Chinese Pangolins, Eastern Quolls and Northern Koalas amidst many more offerings. 2-1 Leipzig is my vote and that seems to be the consensus so far in this match.
     
    Brum likes this.
  11. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    17 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    11,354
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I am voting 2-1 in favor of Bronx. Small rodents are underrepresented in zoos and Bronx really turns it into on of their strengths. However Leipzig is great in this category, and I may be temped to switch (especially if someone offers a compelling argument).
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  12. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

    Joined:
    20 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    10,699
    Location:
    Connecticut, U.S.A.
    I'd imagine that, just like with Brookfield in the NA cup, the presence of pangolins will outweigh any other arguments otherwise but here we go...

    Miscellaneous Mammals at Bronx:
    -Matschie's Tree-Kangaroo
    -Red-Necked Wallaby (ambassador animal)
    -Red Kangaroo (ambassador animal)
    -Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec
    -Straw-Colored Fruit Bat
    -Indian Flying Fox
    -Rodrigues Flying Fox
    -Screaming Hairy Armadillo
    -Southern Three-Banded Armadillo (ambassador animal)
    -Rock Hyrax
    -Domestic Rabbit (in the Children's Zoo if we're counting domestics)
    -Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
    -Linneaus's Two-Toed Sloth
    -Hoffmann's Two-Toed Sloth
    -Giant Anteater
    -Damaraland Mole-Rat
    -Domestic Guineapig (in the petting zoo if we're counting domestics)
    -Patagonian Mara
    -Rock Cavy
    -Long-Tailed Chinchilla
    -California Mouse
    -Cactus Mouse
    -North American Deer Mouse
    -Red-Rumped Agouti
    -Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
    -Greater Egyptian Jerboa
    -Brazilian Porcupine (ambassador animal)
    -North American Porcupine
    -Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
    -Cape Porcupine (ambassador animal)
    -Arabian Spiny Mouse
    -Nile Grass Rat
    -Pallid Gerbil
    -Eurasian Harvest Mouse
    -South African Pygmy Mouse
    -Western House Mouse
    -Fat-Tailed Gerbil
    -Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
    -Bushy-Tailed Jird
    -Malagasy Giant Rat
    -Common Degu
    -Harris's Antelope Squirrel
    -Prevost's Squirrel
    -Black-Tailed Prairie Dog
    -Yellow-Bellied Marmot (ambassador animal)
    -Northern Treeshrew
    -Aardvark (imported from Tanzania)

    Miscellaneous Mammals I Noted at Leipzig in September 2018:
    -Kowari
    -Eastern Quoll
    -Red-Necked Wallaby
    -Queensland Koala
    -Vietnamese Small Flying Fox
    -Domestic Rabbit
    -Chinese Pangolin
    -Giant Anteater
    -Ansell's Mole-Rat
    -Patagonian Mara
    -Greater Capybara
    -Black Nile Spiny Mouse
    -Fat Sand Rat
    -Grizzled Giant Squirrel
    -Swinhoe's Striped Squirrel

    So that's 47 species at Bronx vs 15 at Leipzig... Of course I do have the slight advantage of knowing a little about the species Bronx keeps bts whereas I don't for Leipzig so the actual difference is likely slightly smaller. Even discounting ambassador species and domestics, though, that's a 25 species difference.

    While Leipzig's work with Chinese Pangolins deserves every bit of praise it's received here, I feel as though I should point out that the WCS does work with every species of pangolin in-situ and will have done more to save the entire Order than Leipzig ever will have (not to undermine the wonderful work Leipzig has and is doing). My understanding is the WCS isn't supportive of the highly controversial manner in which the US pangolin population came to be (see discussion on the Brookfield Misc. Mammals North American Cup thread if you don't know) and therefore doesn't want to keep them, which honestly I can appreciated even though I do support the existence of a captive population.

    Considering the overwhelming difference in the collection size and the fact that the WCS will undoubtedly be doing more to research and conserve pangolins despite not actually keeping any, I will be voting 2-1 in favor of Bronx.

    ~Thylo
     
  13. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

    Joined:
    20 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    10,699
    Location:
    Connecticut, U.S.A.
    I find this to be a rather sad common to make.. As great as pangolins, Koalas, and quolls are, to downplay the importance of rodent diversity-- especially in the zoo world where most institutions almost completely ignore their existence-- is rather ignorant sounding imo.

    ~Thylo
     
  14. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    23 Feb 2019
    Posts:
    4,144
    Location:
    London
    It wasn't meant in a derogatory way to Bronx, in fact I too appreciate the diversity of mice there believe it or not. I'm not a fan of koalas, I find them boring and inactive, quolls are exciting if you can see them, and pangolins, once you've seen them they just look like massive pine cones trudging around their enclosure.. :)
    However, I honestly do enjoy seeing Mouse houses, like at Vienna, etc..
    So it wasn't in a derogatory way, (although tbf it may have sounded slightly so in hindsight) I like seeing new species in zoos instead of meerkats.
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  15. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member 10+ year member

    Joined:
    16 May 2010
    Posts:
    14,735
    Location:
    Wilds of Northumberland
    This post has convinced me to switch my initial vote from 2-1 Leipzig to 2-1 Bronx :)
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  16. TheGerenuk

    TheGerenuk Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    8 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    2,870
    Location:
    Brampton, Ontario, Canada
    Same here. It's impressive to see the tide of the match turning after one influential post.
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  17. birdsandbats

    birdsandbats Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    17 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    11,354
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I don't there is any justification for voting 3-0 for Leipzig.
     
    ThylacineAlive likes this.
  18. ThylacineAlive

    ThylacineAlive Well-Known Member 10+ year member

    Joined:
    20 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    10,699
    Location:
    Connecticut, U.S.A.
    Fair enough then. I wasn't so much worried you were being derogatory towards Bronx but rather Rodentia as a whole; glad to hear I was wrong. I do enjoy the three species you mentioned very much as well.

    ~Thylo
     
  19. Hvedekorn

    Hvedekorn Well-Known Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    31 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    597
    Location:
    Skive, Denmark
    I'm also voting 2-1 for Bronx Zoo. Leipzig Zoo is most certainly a strong contender in this category (it would probably be better than average even without the pangolins), and I'm not trying to downplay that, but it's still got the typical zoo tendency of relegating miscellaneous mammals to the sidelines. The pangolins are just a (granted, extremely nice) bonus in the elephant house, the Swinhoe's striped squirrels are just sidekicks to the tigers etc. Very few of them are stars on their own.

    Bronx, on the other hand, has actually built a house for small mammals only, and many of the species in there are rarities. That's something that really impresses me in this day and age where the big crowd-pleasing mammals rule.

    To be honest, I'm probably a little bit biased because I didn't see the pangolins when I visited Leipzig. There were no scheduled feedings that day, and they refused to show themselves in their darkened exhibit. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have voted 2-1 on Leipzig's behalf if I had actually seen a pangolin in real life.
     
  20. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member 5+ year member

    Joined:
    23 Feb 2019
    Posts:
    4,144
    Location:
    London
    I am a great fan of Rodentia, I think it is one of the most varied orders, and they are vastly underrepresented in zoos as a whole, just like Chiroptera and Soricomorpha...

    I would like to add in a few photos of exhibits...
    Leipzig exhibits:

    ansell's mole rat.jpg

    Mole rat exhibit with soft substrate and burrowing area to practise natural activities

    cairo spiny mouse.jpg

    Large spiny mouse exhibit (the mouse is the small dot in the background), lit up with red lights which do not affect the rat and makes the oblivious of the visitors, reducing stress levels.

    fat sand rat.jpg fat sand rat .jpg
    Two photos of the immense Fat sand rat exhibit. They fit together (the top one to the left of the bottom one). The fact that the photographer (thank you @gulogulogulo ) couldn't fit the exhibit into one photo is suggestive...

    koala.jpg

    Comparatively large koala exhibit, immense considering these animals basically sleep the whole day :D

    kowari.jpg

    Large kowari exhibit in Gondwanaland. Darkened in order to maintain low stress levels with the animals and allowing natural behaviours to come through.

    sumatran giant squirrel.jpg

    Massive Sri-Lankan giant squirrel exhibit with lots of climbing opportunities, etc.

    vietnamese flying fox leipzig.jpg

    And one of the best exhibits for flying foxes I have ever seen, second only to Vienna's magnificent rainforest house.

    Those are the ones I chose, and I haven't even mentioned the quolls and the pangolins, just to demonstrate that Leipzig are far from simply those three 'flagship' species.

    I will do Bronx soon.
     
    gulogulogulo likes this.