Ungulates and elephants. Let’s get this over with. A little refresher on the rules: You have three votes to award: you can award all three votes to one zoo, if you think it’s vastly superior in the given category, but if you think it’s closer than that then award two votes to the stronger zoo and one to the weaker zoo. Stick to the topic: each match has one category and you need to confine your decision-making and advocacy strictly to that category. No strategic voting. Vote for the zoo you honestly think deserves to win, not simply the one you like best. Doing that only breaks the game. The point of this game is to stoke debate. Argue your case for why you are voting the way you are, and why others should too. At the same time, keep an open mind and be willing to change your vote in response to a good argument. Votes are public and that means you’re free to ask people to explain why they are voting a certain way. But do it respectfully. This game is supposed to be fun. Play nice.
In terms of enclosure quality and innovation Burgers' is mostly far ahead of Tierpark Berlin, but it is hard to not acknowledge the endless amount of species in Berlin...
An unlikely occurrence of quantity not really resulting in a compromise on quantity. With the imminent de/reconstruction of the elephant house Berlin is in a very strong position here.
OK I will provide the lists Burger's: Beisa oryx California bighorn sheep Collared peccary Common hog deer Common waterbuck Eastern white-bearded wildebeest Eurasian forest reindeer Javan banteng Myanmar thamin Reeves' muntjac Roan antelope Rothschild's giraffe Grant's zebra Southern white rhinoceros South-East Asian elephant Tierpark Berlin: East African bush elephant South-East Asian elephant Chapman's zebra Eastern kiang Greater one-horned rhinoceros Grevy's zebra Hartmann's mountain zebra Kulan Przewalski's horse Somali wild ass Addax Addra gazelle Alpine chamois Alpine ibex Altai maral American wood bison Arabian oryx Barren ground musk ox Bactrian deer Barbary stag Bawean deer Cape buffalo Central Chinese goral Chacoan peccary Chinese water deer Common hog deer Common waterbuck Eurasian elk European bison European mouflon Guanaco Himalayan blue sheep Indian sambar deer Javan rusa Manitoba elk Marco Polo sheep Michie's tufted deer Mishmi takin Myanmar thamin Nilgai Northern blue sheep Pere David's deer Persian fallow deer Red buffalo Red river hog Rocky Mountain goat Rothschild's giraffe Shensi takin Sichuan takin Southern gerenuk Southern mountain reedbuck Sulawesi babirusa Taiga musk deer Tajik markhor Transcapian urial Tule elk Vicuna Vietnamese sika deer White-lipped deer So that's 59-15 to Tierpark Berlin in species
Now for enclosure photos: Burgers' These are all the exhibits containing ungulates: A good Asian elephant enclosure from what I can see, with a large pool and well-planted... The Asian hoofstock enclosure, with Common hog deer, Myanmar thamin, Javan banteng and Reeves' muntjac I think. Quite large and nice but nothing particularly special... An all right enclosure for reindeer, could be better but could also be a lot worse (cough cough London zoo) A very large and nice looking enclosure for savanna animals, including the oryx, roan antelopes, wildebeest, waterbuck, rhinos and giraffes. A very good collared peccary enclosure with magnificent theming and fantastic rockwork... And.... An amazing bighorn sheep enclosure!!! Probably some of the best rockwork in any zoo, great landscaping and realism.
This is quite an interesting match! First of all, I think (at least for me) a 3-0 match for either Berlin or Burgers' is out of the question. The huge number of (sub)species in TP Berlin, the far majority kept in good enclosures, is breathtaking. However, similarly it is impossible to deny the quality of Burgers' Safari, and their mixed hoofstock paddock in the Rimba. I believe the main ungulate enclosures in Burgers' are of superior quality to most of what TP Berlin has to offer. That being said, the gap is not that large. The only real problem I have with Berlin is the elephant house, a problem the zoo is/will be dealing with soon. Most ungulates in the Tierpark have fine enclosures. I especially liked the camel paddocks (which some consider a waste of space - I disagree with those people!) and the deer exhibits. The gap in species diversity and richness is wider: Burgers' has a fine but limited selection, but is no match against Berlin in terms of collection. I usually go for quality over quantity, but the quantity gap is so much wider than the quality gap between these zoos. I currently voted 2-1 for TP Berlin and while I'm open to being convinced otherwise I don't think I'll change that.
This one is incredibly hard for me. I've not yet visited Tierpark Berlin. And going through the ZooChat media to find good reference images for each single exhibit takes me too long. This match for me is going to be about a specific roster from Tierpark, specifically those that I'd be jumping to see, so I'm leaving out a few because I; - Saw them already - they're one of the many wapiti subspecies - I intend to see them in near future zoo visits So the roster from TP I'm working with is; kiang hartmanns mountain zebra kulan somali wild ass arabian oryx barbary stag bawean deer chinese goral himalayan blue sheep marco polo sheep southern gerenuk southern mountain reedbuck sulawesi babirusa transcapian urial white-lipped deer taiga musk deer For me this is quite a large roster, if I may so so myself. But only a small proportion of their ungulate collection. Only 16/59!! Weighing these against the roster from Burgers' that I am always eager to see; Beisa oryx California bighorn sheep Collared peccary Common hog deer Common waterbuck Eastern white-bearded wildebeest Eurasian forest reindeer Javan banteng Myanmar thamin Reeves' muntjac Roan antelope Rothschild's giraffe Grant's zebra Southern white rhinoceros Yes, I know this all but one I think I'm taking a 1-1 for the animals that excite me. Then as I mentioned earlier, I have no visuals on enclosure, so this point goes to Burgers' Zoo. Making my vote a 1-2 for Burgers' Zoo
Sorry but I see this argument for voting for burgers seriously flawed. For a start some of the species you list at Burgers are present at Tierpark anyway. Are you serious that you'd rather see Reeves muntjac than some of the gems to be found at Tierpark? I've seen them in my garden! For me the species difference and that I can't remember seeing a poor outdoor enclosure for any ungulates at Tierpark make this an absolute walkover! Yes a couple of burgers enclosures look good, but are they better for the animals really? If there were 5 votes I think it would be 5-0 Tierpark!
I gotta give Burgers' credit where credit is due. On the muntjacs note; I like how they interact with the other animals in the rimba mixed exhibit. I'm not sure what they're mixed with in TP.
OK I'm not sure about 5-0 Tierpark and I'm finding it really hard to decide between 2-1 and 3-0. However, the sheer bulk of species (many of which are only found in a coupld of other zoos worldwide) makes it win this 3-0 imo. I know that the rockwork is good in Burgers' and that the mixes are good, but does it really matter for the animals? Not sure. I don't think the sheep care whether they are being given granite from California or marble from Italy... However, I would point out that the Wood bison enclosure at the Tierpark doesn't have a single plant in it.... And I'm not sure whether the pretty authentic Chacoan xerophytes are just overgrown weeds that have prospered due to low maintenance, but it still looks good...
The 5-0 comment was not an insult to Burgers! I think Tierpark would win 5-0 against nearly every zoo in Europe on ungulates, 95 plus %of them anyway
I gotta admit, those enclosures amur leopard posted look great. I will be looking up a couple more specific exhibits on the media. Maybe I alter my vote after. To my knowledge, mixed exhibits have a enrichment function besides just saving space Like some animals interact with each other, being enrichment to the animals.
Do quote the whole sentence... I did add something on to that which made it more valid. I know mixes can be helpful, although they are always a risk, and in fact they raise cortisol levels I the animals present, indicating a rise in stress...
I didn't see anything else other than that part that made it more valid, my appologies if there is. Didn't mean to come over as rude
Oh no ! I'm sorry you didn't come across as rude at all! It's all fine.. I'm sorry for potentially sounding aggressive
I just visited both of these zoos a couple of months ago, and I can clearly remember them as I extensively reviewed the zoos on my Snowleopard's 2019 Road Trip thread. Burgers' Zoo has quality over quantity throughout the entire park, with an outstanding African Savanna featuring a variety of ungulates, plus the other big mixed-species ungulate yard (in the Rimba zone) is just as impressive. The problem is that with only a small number of species (circa 15) it makes this match initially seem like a tricky one. I counted approximately 65 ungulate species at Berlin Tierpark and while there isn't anything quite as spectacular as the two huge ungulate exhibits that I mentioned at Burgers' Zoo, there is still a ton of quality and only a handful of poor ungulate enclosures at the Tierpark. The overwhelming difference in the number of species between the two zoos (65 to 15) and the staggering number of rarities from the perspective of a North American zoo nerd that can be found at the Tierpark (Barbary Red Deer, Bokharan Red Deer, Sunda Sambar Deer, Malayan Sambar Deer, Thorold’s Deer, Central Chinese Goral, Markhor, Bharal, Chamois, Golden Takin, Arabian Oryx and many more) makes it difficult for me to give a point to Burgers' Zoo. My vote is 3-0 Berlin Tierpark
Bit of a double standard here you omit species from Tierpark's roster for consideration on the grounds you have seen them already, then use "have seen them already" as the main reason for inclusion in Burger's roster.....
I REALY love Burgers and have never been to East Berlin sofar but even so the arguments I've heared makes this a German victory.
Though I don't think Burgers should win this round, I think it deserves more credit than a 3-0 implies. For Elephants the enclosure is far superior to the open sandy deserts with steep moats, that Berlin currently has. The enclosure in Burgers might not be very large, but it is one of the better structured and most forested Elephant enclosures around. Burgers' functions as a retirement home for geriatric females and for that the enclosure is perfectly suited. These animals are often not wanted and few zoos specifically keep them, Karlsruhe and Neunkirchen are two other examples. Whereas in Berlin one can see all 6 equid species, including 3 zebra species, Burgers' keeps only one. Their Grant's zebra group is however the largest in Europe and in terms of behaviour is very interesting. On their multiple hectare savanna they keep 3 harems + a bachelor group together, which gives an interesting dynamic. The savanna is also home to the largest White-bearded wildebeest herd in Europe, as well as one of the largest groups of Giraffe. The White rhino group is one of the most successful in terms of breeding with 10 calfs born in the past 17 years. The Savanna enclosure also holds breeding groups of Ellipsen waterbuck and Roan antelope, as well as a few Beisa oryx. The days of Hartebeests are unfortunately over, but it is still one of the better savannahs and all animals actually occur in Kenya (though ranges don't always overlap there). My favourite hoofstock enclosure is a large mixed species enclosure with Banteng, Hog deer, Eld's deer, Muntjac, Pig-tailed macaque and Siamang. It is highly unlikely to see primates mixed with hoofstock and even rarer to see it in an Asian setting. The primate - hoofstock interactions here can be very interesting and there is always something happening. Berlin really has nothing to offer on a similar level. The forest reindeer are now relatively common in Europe, but back in 2002 Burgers was the 2nd zoo outside of Scandinavia (after Bern) to receive this species and in 2005 the first outside Scandinavia to breed them. Breeding succes in Burgers and a few other zoos made it possible for this species to spread. Burgers is also the only reason why there are Bighorn sheep on the continent, with all animals coming from here. In terms of conservation Burgers' does not specifically protect a single species, but it has been managing a rainforest reserve in Belize together with Kerzers for the past 30 years. Baird's tapir are one of the flagship species there.
