This one might well turn on the question of whether or not future plans/developments are admissible as grounds for consideration/discussion
I had previously been pretty laissez-faire about future plans but the Singapore discussion raised a red flag for me. Most zoos have ‘plans’ at some level of development, from the conceptual to the under-construction, but I’m inclined to the view that debate needs to focus on what ‘is’ rather than what ‘will’, or indeed ‘might’ be.
I suspected this was where your thinking was positioned at present, but thought it best to check! This raises an interesting dilemma both for those arguing "for" and "against" Tierpark Berlin, as the ongoing redevelopment of the Alfred-Brehm Haus represents one of the most controversial and debated aspects of the carnivore collection being improved and expanded - a big plus for the "for" lobby - but if this redevelopment is inadmissible, then equally the former status of the ABH prior to its closure is inadmissible for the "against" lobby in my opinion Fortunately, the non-ABH portions of the carnivore collection at Tierpark Berlin comprise a variety of exhibits ranging from okay, through good to very good with no extant exhibits to the best of my recollection which fall short. I'll work on a photo compilation of these exhibits anon.
This could indeed be a controversial category, as the competition has been explicitly about what currently exists and not what will be in the future. I visited Tierpark Berlin on August 9th and therefore the grand old ABH was closed to the public. Whether it will be junky when it reopens, or fantastic, is irrelevant to this tournament. The first carnivore exhibit that I saw was for Malayan Sun Bears and it is a dreadfully old-fashioned cage. Sure, it will be bulldozed eventually but this is 2019 and it's still standing in all of its green-fenced glory. In the Mountain Landscape section of the zoo can be found exhibits for Dhole, European Wild Cat and Eurasian Lynx...all decent yet unspectacular enclosures with the trademark green fencing that is so prevalent throughout the Tierpark. There is another Dhole exhibit elsewhere in the zoo that is wooded and spacious. On my visit the Tierpark still had Snow Leopard, Cheetah, Margay, Maned Wolf, Spotted Hyena, Bush Dog, Bat-eared Fox, Banded Mongoose, Ratel and Binturong in a range of exhibits in the general vicinity of the ABH, but I'm not sure if all those species are still there a few months down the road. There are also species such as Polar Bear, Spectacled Bear, Serval, Common Genet, Raccoon, Striped Hyena, Bobcat, Yellow-bellied Marten and Red Panda in enclosures that for the most part range from average to mediocre in quality...with the exception being the Spectacled Bear habitat which is very nice. All of that gives the Tierpark at least 23 carnivore species. By contrast, Woodland Park Zoo has fewer species but better exhibits. The African Lion exhibit is very impressive and is genuinely larger than what photographs show. There are Maned Wolves and Red Pandas in above-average exhibits that are both lush in the summer. The small Tropical House has a subpar Ocelot enclosure that is far too small (and yet I hardly ever see the Ocelots!) while outside has Jaguar Cove and that is arguably one of the zoo world's truly great Jaguar habitats. The Malayan Tiger, Sloth Bear (two enclosures) and Small-clawed Otter exhibits in Banyan Wilds are all decent, without being spectacular. The zoo also has Meerkats in the Adaptations building, a rocky Snow Leopard exhibit, and then the Northern Trail zone has a superb, world-class Grizzly Bear exhibit and decent North American River Otter and Grey Wolf enclosures. Two more species (Canadian Lynx and Fisher) are definitely being added next year, but just like the ABH at the Tierpark those species should not be counted even though the zoo has made progress on new exhibits. It is what is there today that truly counts. The species count is therefore 13 at Woodland Park and at least 23 at Berlin Tierpark and those should be fairly accurate numbers. (I'm sure that a zoo nerd or two will let us know otherwise) The exhibit quality showcases the contrast between these zoos. Berlin Tierpark has some outdated carnivore enclosures (Serval, Common Genet, Margay, Ratel, Binturong, Malayan Sun Bear, etc.) and the very best carnivore exhibit is probably a modernized grotto in the shape of the Spectacled Bear habitat. Woodland Park has a Grizzly Bear exhibit that is not nearly as large as many others of its kind, but the combination of immersive features and underwater viewing make it one of the best bear exhibits in North America. Likewise, Jaguar Cove isn't an enormous exhibit but there are only a couple of zoos worldwide (maybe Jacksonville and Chester?) that can compare to Woodland Park in creating a Jaguar exhibit that is phenomenal for both cats and visitors. I'm voting 2-1 Woodland Park Zoo because the ABH is currently closed for at least another year and therefore Berlin Tierpark really has very few above-average carnivore exhibits. It's a true weakness of the zoo, which is exactly why the 'Rainforest House' is the next major development at the park.
Considering the fact you indicated having entirely missed several of these exhibits in your review of the collection, I'm not sure you can justifiably say your feeling was that they ranged from average to mediocre For the record, here's a portion of the "average to mediocre" exhibit for the Yellow-bellied Martens: ...and for the Arabian Striped Hyenas: Can't find any photographs of the Bobcat exhibit in the gallery.
Yes, @TeaLovingDave , you are correct that I did miss some of the carnivore exhibits at Berlin Tierpark and those would be the Striped Hyena, Yellow-bellied Marten and Bobcat enclosures. I personally saw 20 out of the 23 carnivore exhibits that I listed on this ZooChat Cup thread, and so thanks for posting the photos as the Yellow-bellied Marten exhibit is very nice and the Striped Hyena exhibit honestly looks like an average hyena zoo exhibit. There is no doubt that Berlin Tierpark has more carnivore species than Woodland Park Zoo, but the Seattle establishment has Jaguar Cove and Northern Trail...with Jaguar and Grizzly Bear habitats that are far better than anything the Tierpark can even dream about. Two great zoos, but I'm sticking with my 2-1 WPZ vote.
Which is entirely fair I merely felt it worth calling out your inclusion of those three exhibits in the list of "mediocre to average" enclosures (rather than the preceding general list of exhibits), as opposed to aiming to change your mind overall. One or two points, mind you: 1) Whereabouts exactly is the second dhole exhibit of which you speak, and do you have any photographs you can share? When I last visited in September 2018, only the pre-existing woodland exhibit was present (which judging from your above post, you would tend to agree with myself is a pretty nice enclosure overall). 2) I'd argue there's nothing wrong with the Ratel/Margay/Binturong/Mongoose row, nor the Spotted Hyena and Altai Lynx exhibits.
I think is fair not to include the Tierpark's future plans and to focus on the presence, but even handicapped Berlin is still quite strong. I visited it on Sunday and the current situation is: Next to the great Andean Bear enclosures, they have enormous Polar Bear pool with young attraction Herta , which even not the best Polar Bear enclosure is above average. They are two spices of Tigers currently on-show , Sumatran female with 4 cubs and Amur tigers. Snow Leopards are in an average rocky enclosure, but definitely not bad. The Bush Dog and Maned wolf row of enclosures are not spectacular, but spacious enough for the both species. The " Hyaenidae" Rocks is nicely upgraded sine last year with four enclosures for East African Banded Mongoose: Arabian Striped hyena, Spotted hyena: and Bat-eared fox: Two Dole enclosures - one spacious for the pack and one Alpine for 2 other guys: Two species of Lynxes - Altay Lynx and Bobcat in classic Tierpark stile exhibits.
Two connected Yellow-throated Marten exhibits, which give a lot of space and playground for this very active species: Red Panda "vineyard", that I would say is very picturesque: Spacious Iberian wolf home in the woods: Good Wild Cat and lovely Manul exhibits in Alpine zone: The Serval exhibit is tight for the species and since last year it was home of Palm Civet, I hope is only temporary solution. The worst is of course the badly outdated cages for the Sun Bears, which are waiting for the new home. The former ABH Ratel, Margay,Binturong row of exhibits are not visible now and personally believe, that gives advantage for Berlin, rather to draw them back. Cos, if we not consider future plans, it is fair not to consider outdated areas, that are already closed also. The off-show list, based on the year report is quite long and to be counted or not is of course personal opinion, but is good to mention that species, like Indochinese Clouded Leopard and Javan Leopard are confirmed part of the collection. I have watched few YouTube Videos of Woodland Park, before start writing this and was definitely impressed by the Grizzly Bear habitat. Nevertheless will keep my vote for the more diverse collection, covers whole 9 Families of Carnivora(on-show) and lives in the former grounds of the Friedrichsfelde Palace. 2:1 for the Tierpark.
Hmm, I was going to vote 2-1 for Woodland Park based on having better enclosures even though fewer species; but those photos posted by twilighter all look really nice so combined with the higher species count I'm going 2-1 for Berlin instead.
It IS fair to consider outdated off-show areas, if they are still in use. Does anyone know if that is the case for the ratel etc row?
The former Wolverine enclosure (temporarily Sandhill crane) now holds a few extra Dhole The Ratel exhibit is absolutely tiny for such an active and curious inhabitant, easily one of the worst enclosures for me. The Striped hyena and Altai lynx enclosures are also on the small side to me. That is what you get when they only show the better enclosures . The Malayan sun bear enclosure is still a disgrace (though it will be gone soon), as is the Ratel enclosure. You also would not like the snow leopard enclosure, which is too small, but no pictures showing the full cage have been uploaded apparently. There are several fine enclosures in the Tierpark, but none are fantastic, except the Wolf enclosure. Woodland Park Zoo seems to play at a different level than the vast majority of the Berlin enclosures.
Now that's a poser, and one I don't know the answer to..... However by that principle there seems something of a catch-22 in play; offshow areas undergoing improvement or which were already good don't count because they are currently offshow, but (perceived) poor ones still count if there's a chance they are still occupied I wonder if there's a single person on the site who likes that enclosure
Yikes, that looks really small... Anyways, I'm very split on which way to vote right now. The excellent photos posted by @twilighter show lots of really good exhibits and with a much larger species count I was ready to give 2-1 to Berlin. However after seeing photos of the Tierpark's terrible Sun Bear and Ratel exhibits and looking through Woodland Park's exhibits again, I'm keeping my 2-1 vote for Woodland Park, although could definitely be swayed to vote for the Berlin Tierpark.
4x4x3 metres for a single Ratel (plus however big the offshow indoors space is) isn't that bad- it's certainly not great, I'm merely quibbling the suggestion it is "terrible" and as bad as the Sun Bear exhibit I don't suppose @markmeier knows if this row of exhibits is in use at all now?
Yeah, it really is. I'm with @lintworm in calling that a disgrace. That photo swapped me over to 2-1 for Woodland Park.
