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ZooChat Cup Match #20: Dvur Kralove vs Poznan

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 20 Mar 2018.

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Hoofstock: Dvur Kralove or Poznan?

Poll closed 24 Mar 2018.
  1. Dvur Kralove

    75.0%
  2. Poznan

    25.0%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    Poznan's unlucky here, I think. I haven't been but from little I've seen in the gallery and from ZTL ungulates looks like a real strength. Except it's drawn ungulates against Dvur Kralove. It's going to be tough.

    ZooChat Cup

    In summary, the rules of the game are as follows:
    - You may choose whatever criteria you like to decide how to vote, as long as it only relates to the category above.
    - You can use whatever resources you like to inform your vote, including Zoolex, Zootierliste, the ZooChat gallery, trip reviews, zoo maps, books and wherever else. You don't have to have visited both zoos to vote.
    - Votes are public and can be changed at any time before the poll closes.
    - The aim of the game is to provoke debate. Post explaining why you voted the way you did, and why others should join you.
    - Voting closes in four days
    - The one thing you can't do is vote based on anything other than the relevant category.

    Amersfoort faces off against Twycross tomorrow night.
     
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  2. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member

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    Hello CG Swans. Which Poznan zoo is being used: Stare and/or Nove?
     
  3. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, the new one.
     
  4. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, CG Swans
     
  5. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member

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    @CGSwans , do Aardvark go with this category (like manatee and elephant) or with small mammals?

    Dvur Kralove should win this one normally, their collection of African ungulates is unrivalled. Poznan's collection is about half in terms of species numbers, but still keeps quite a few, including Golden + Sichuan takin, Bawean deer and Thomson's gazelle as rarities. I haven't visited either zoo, but Dvur Kralove seems to have too many species for it's enclosures, with multiple species sharing the same enclosure (without being mixed), which means they are locked inside small stables half of the day, when the other species is out... Poznan enclosures all seem more than fine and (extremely) large, including the one for African elephants, whose enclosure in Dvur looks not that great, based on pictures...

    So based on collection --> Dvur, but based on enclosures --> Poznan is what I would say based on pictures and some stories, but I would like to hear from people who have visited both.
     
  6. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    I see the thinking but no, I think aardvarks are out of scope.
     
  7. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member

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    Both: African elephant (including South African elephant; Poznan also has East African bush elephant); Grevy’s zebra

    Dvur Kralove
    Cape hyrax
    Grant’s, Burchell’s, Selous* and Chapman’s zebras; Hartmann’s mountain zebra, Somali wild ass
    Eastern black rhinoceros, southern white rhinoceros
    Red river hog, common warthog
    Western pygmy and common hippopotami
    Dromedary
    Reticulated and Rothschild’s giraffes, okapi
    Cape and Congo buffalos, roan antelope, black sable antelope, Arabian oryx, gemsbok, addax, Defassa and common waterbucks, Kafue and Nile lechwes, southern mountain reedbuck, southern lesser kudu, nyala, western sitatunga, eastern bongo, common eland, eastern white–bearded and brindled gnus; white-tailed gnu, common impala, Kirk’s dikdik, Nubian red-necked gazelle, Barbary sheep

    Poznan (Nove)
    Przewalski’s horse,
    South American tapir
    Southern white rhinoceros
    Negros warty pig
    Bactrian camel, vicuna
    Java mouse deer
    Rothschild’s giraffe
    Axis, Visayan spotted and Bawean deer, Chinese Reeve’s muntjac (including Chinese form), Vietnamese sika
    Thomson’s gazelle, European lowland and American wood bison, Shensi and Sichuan takins, western sitatunga, white-tailed gnu

    Poznan has tapirs, deer and chevotrains; Dvur Kralove has hyraxes and hippopotami, but wins this one due to its collection of interesting bovids.
     
  8. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    Along the same lines as the aardvarks, I think hyraxes fall outside the definition for this category. Elephants and sirenians are included here as a matter of convenience, rather than taxonomy. Hyraxes should be considered to be 'small mammals'.

    I doubt that changes your assessment of the two zoos, though.
     
  9. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks CG Swans. I wondered about aardvarks, as they belong to the Afrotheria, as are tenrecs, golden moles and sengis. Elephants and sirenians are tethytheres, while tethytheres and hyraxes are paenungulates. They are not ungulates, but whales are now included with artiodactyls in the Cetartiodactyla. It is difficult to work out where to draw the line, especially as some 'ungulates' qualify as small mammals.
     
  10. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    A few do, yes, because I've deliberately kept that category a little more open-ended. Whilst taxonomy is obviously defining for some categories - I'm not about to tell people not to include mouse deer for this category, for instance - the important thing to consider is the niche, or 'function' that a species has within a collection.

    The large carnivore, primate and hoofstock categories are intended to capture the big, ABC exhibits that will occupy much of the ground space and budget allocated to exhibits. They are intended to slightly favour zoos that place a premium on exhibit design.

    The other three categories are intended not only to capture the odds'n'sods species - the aardvarks and hyraxes, among others - but to benefit zoos that place an emphasis on species diversity.

    Between the two sets of categories the game should achieve a balance across people who emphasise design, and those who prioritise species lists. So the amorphousness of 'small mammals', and that category's ability to bleed into other categories, does indeed have a purpose.
     
  11. FunkyGibbon

    FunkyGibbon Well-Known Member

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    @Dassie rat I think you missed Springbock for Dvur.

    Heavens knows which way I'm voting on this one. It should be Dvur, but lintworm raises a good point and there's also the geographic limitation of having an Africa only collection.
     
  12. Dassie rat

    Dassie rat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Funky Gibbon. You're right. One of the friendliest zoo animals I've ever seen was a springbok at Amsterdam Zoo.
     
  13. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    I've changed my vote from Dvur to Poznan on the strength of this information. Poznan might only have half the collection, but if Dvur only has so many species because they're rotating in and out of the same exhibits then that simply means Poznan is better at curating a collection than Dvur is.
     
  14. FunkyGibbon

    FunkyGibbon Well-Known Member

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    It's worth pointing out that the number of species that share yards like this is quite limited, in relation to the overall collection. Maybe 8 species in four yards? Nonetheless it definitely is a thing.
     
  15. Vision

    Vision Well-Known Member

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    The exhibits where I noticed a rotation on my visit (as in, species A were on-show in the morning but replaced by species B in the afternoon) were:
    - Red-necked gazelle / Sable antelope
    - Lesser kudu / Springbok
    - Lesser kudu / Springbok
    This, of course, is unfortunate for the animals, to have to be locked in for half a day. I'm not sure if there are other exhibits in which this happens, but regardless I hope this gets fixed, which I think is definitely possible if they switch their collection around a little bit.

    However, I can't not vote for Dvur Kralove in this match-up. Poznan is wonderful, gigantic and indubitably a great zoo for ungulates, but it just cannot beat the immense safari area Dvur has. Before visiting I was sceptical of Dvur Kralove as well, but the entire safari is truly something else, and something no other safari park I've ever visited has done so well. My vote's with Dvur, and no Bawean deer will change that. :p
     
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  16. FunkyGibbon

    FunkyGibbon Well-Known Member

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    Dvur's husbandry record is also something else.
     
  17. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the fact that two of the yards have the same two species is because of management issues inside what were supposed to be single groups. That would mitigate my concern, as it'd obviously be something the zoo hadn't chosen. They'd still be better off with their own off-display yards, though.
     
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  18. LaughingDove

    LaughingDove Well-Known Member

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    This is a really tricky one... I've visited both zoos and I think I would agree with the assessment that Poznan is better for exhibits and Dvur for species, but I don't think they're that far apart on either count and both have some really nice rarities.

    I'm kind of struggling with this one because I visited Poznan in late spring on a really nice warm day and the wide open spaces and ungulate enclosures were great. Dvur on the other hand, I visited on a cold early spring day before the zoo had properly opened up for the summer and many animals were in hardstands or locked indoors - the enormous safari area for example did not have animals in it. Dvur have also lost their most interesting species since when I visited, the Northern White Rhino, so I think I'm leaning towards Poznan.
    This is the first of these votes where I think I might change my mind later though...
     
  19. sooty mangabey

    sooty mangabey Well-Known Member

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    I've not been to Poznan for nearly a quarter of century, so this might be unfair, but it has to be Dvur, doesn't it? Granted, it's only African species - but all of the most interesting hoofed animals are African, aren't they? So, no drawback there. The big, mixed drive-through (or be driven-through) paddocks are simply wonderful. Big herds of everything. A great history of fantastic species. And they have okapis in a pretty nice exhibit.
     
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  20. LaughingDove

    LaughingDove Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely see why most people would agree with you, and I have a hard time disagreeing with you as well, but I'll just make a brief case for Poznan.

    In terms of number of species and number of exhibits, Dvur certainly wins. But Poznan's elephant enclosure really is rather good, so much better than Dvur's.

    Poznan also has a number of non-African hoofed animals that I think really are very interesting: two species of takin (golden and Sichuan - not the more common Mishmi) in a rather nice wooded hillside enclosure that I seem to recall particularly liking, Bawean deer in an attractive little enclosure, wood bison, a rather nice mixed South American enclosure with tapir, and a number of nice paddocks with relatively more common species like white rhino and Thomson's gazelles (the latter enclosure I remember rather liking). Disclaimer: this is without me actually looking through my pictures so my memories are likely to be a bit rusty. Mouse deer is another nice ungulate, though I don't think their enclosure in the nocturnal house was particularly large.

    And Poznan has most of their ungulate enclosures dotted around the nice woodland area (with wild Hoopoes and free-ranging Sousliks - I know I shouldn't let that influence my decision) which I felt was a much more attractive setting than Dvur.