But the Palawan leopard cats aren't exactly spoilt in any zoo in Europe, so that a mediocre enclosure wins from a worse one doesn't really say anything.
I'd say the TP Berlin one is good, not merely mediocre. Anyhow, this is off-topic for the purposes of this discussion
@TLD: But the sun bears have indoor/outdoor access. Although I don't know the current situation, the ABH used to be too crowded to allow this.
Just a few points now that things are heating up. The outdoor moated exhibits at the AB House are quite nice. But as I've always said in this discussion, the indoor moats cannot be given the credit they could receive because they are usually operating as the sole exhibit for a separate species! On the catch-22 thing, I think Berlin does receive credit for renovating it. However, a renovation where it appears that some of the key problems won't be addressed isn't going to do it for me, although I'm sure it will be better. I fail to understand the love the other exhibits at Berlin are receiving. The snow leopards have no height, the cheetahs no space to run, and the hyaenids are on Singapore-style moated stages which are quite bare. Many zoos do worse than this, and they don't really deserve criticism, but at a world class zoo these would be enclosures that were ignored in the debate, not held up in the manner they are here. I'll deliberately leave bigger questions about Berlin's future for another day.
For what it is worth, the Malayan Tigers had access to both the indoor *and* outdoor exhibits when I visited!
Presumably your least favourite sun bear enclosure in Europe is de-facto any exhibit which doesn't contain sun bear
I think the situation was different on your visit than it was on mine, then. Sumatran tigers were kept in the same horribly small cages as the leopards and jaguars. Malayan tiger had access to both the indoor and outdoor moated enclosure indeed, but Siberian tigers and Lions rotated between theirs (and while the outdoor enclosure is fine there, the indoor enclosure definitely is not, when used as the only enclosure they have).
Collection-wise the Tierpark Berlin is much more diverse but the enclosures at Rotterdam - Blijdorp are very good and with keeping animals IMO this is ways more important so my vote goes to Rotterdam.
Tierpark out in the first round might be the biggest shocker yet! Or will this be another Wroclaw vs Burger's!
Well large carnivores is hardly TP Berlin best selling poins and Rotterdam is a tough team to beat overall. Had the category been ecotherms TP Berlin probably wouldn't have gotten a single vote....
I find the current vote astonishing! The vote is being swayed purely on the outside sun bear cage and a couple of outside enclosures which aren't big enough for the animals they hold! The indoor enclosures sizewise are on a par with plenty of zoos, you just can't see them! Collection wise Tierpark smashes Rotterdam and plenty of other zoos. Most of Tierpark's enclosures aren't that bad !
I think a number of the people voting against the Tierpark - or for Blijdorp - have not been to the Tierpark, and are thus going on the persuasive words of others (which is, sort of, what this is all about!). I would say that describing the Tierpark's enclosures as "not bad" is to damn them with faint praise. I disagree with @FunkyGibbon's lukewarm comments about the hyena, Snow Leopard and Cheetah exhibits, all of which, to me, look pretty excellent, as do plenty of others. The stumbling block here is the Alfred Brehm House. I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded, one way or the other, but I can think of many reasons to love this house (not all fo which are wholly relevant to this vote, and she of which may no longer be valid since they started buggering around with the place about 5 years ago)... Its vastness is, in itself, impressive. It speaks of the optimism of a socialist government (even if that socialist government may have been, er, discredited in many other areas). It has bronze (?) tarsiers, or bushbabies, on the bannisters of the stairs. Purely on observed evidence, gathered wholly unscientifically, but the keepers in the house seem to have a wonderful bond with their animals - on a number of occasions I've seen the sort of thing which is no doubt frowned upon by most modern zoos, but which is wonderful nonetheless - keepers communicating directly with jaguars, leopards, whatever. Feeding them by hand. The small mammal exhibits, upstairs. The wonderful walk-through aviary in the middle. The rocky exhibits for lions and tigers. The enormous statue at the entrance. Yes, it has possibly been over-stocked in the past, and yes, some of the outdoor cages might have been better combined into one, but I'd still put this as one fo the absolute top zoo buildings in the world (or, I would have done, until the tinkering around with it started). I wouldn't feel I could defend the Sun Bear House, mind you.
@pipaluk Have you ever stopped to think what it must be like for an animal to live in one of those cages? Nothing to do and nowhere to go. Hour after hour. Day after day. No escape from millions of gawking visitors screaming and pointing. Surrounded by competitors and predators. No choice. No control. It's easy for us to ignore or forget about welfare. It's even easier to write off one or two bad enclosures. I think the Tierpark's issues are more systemic, but let's say it's only a few. For the animals that live there, that's their whole life. That's why I'll always value a boring collection in good exhibits over a stonking collection with a few stinkers. There aren't enough zoo enthusiasts in the world for their enjoyment to equal the suffering of an animal housed poorly. EDIT: To @sooty mangabey, I don't see a consensus in favour of the Tierpark among those of us who have visited both collections, though.
While I appreciate your point of view, what you're writing here could be written, to a greater or lesser extent, about any zoo animal. And I guess, ultimately, it boils down to the question of whether we believe that animals in captivity do suffer - or whether they suffer to an extent that outweighs the "cost" of their loss of "liberty". Many, whose opinions I respect, will disagree with me (including you, I am sure!) but I just don't believe that the animals in the Brehm House do suffer in the way that you describe. I appreciate that other options are most certainly available....
Your maths is wrong here! How many outside enclosures does/did the AB House have, twelve, fourteen? Until recently the House held more cats than several zoos put together. Even if those of us who object to it took a quantitative approach it would be a huge problem. But qualitatively, it becomes a behemoth that hangs over the whole zoo. Again, the fact that the indoor enclosures are no worse than most zoos is not the key point here. When I visited the House was so full of different species that indoors and outdoors were separated and each was the totality of the space provided to its inhabitant. @sooty mangabey, I was very taken by the bronze tarsiers myself last summer! But I feel forced to note that you could still have enjoyed all but one of your points had the house been empty of large carnivores (I know you wouldn't actually have enjoyed that). The main problem I have with the renovations, which I should be applauding, is that after you will not like the House, but I will not either. That to me seems almost an achievement in itself.
