Join our zoo community

ZooChat Cup Match #6: Magdeburg v Munich

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 2 Mar 2018.

?

Large carnivores: Magdeburg or Munich?

Poll closed 9 Mar 2018.
  1. Magdeburg

    59.1%
  2. Munich

    40.9%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    2,775
    Location:
    Melbourne
    The first all-German match-up, and the focus is... large carnivores!

    The concept behind this poll is explained here:
    ZooChat Cup

    In summary, the rules of the game are as follows:
    - You may choose whatever criteria you like to decide how to vote, as long as it only relates to the category above.
    - You can use whatever resources you like to inform your vote, including Zoolex, Zootierliste, the ZooChat gallery, trip reviews, zoo maps, books and wherever else. You don't have to have visited both zoos to vote.
    - Votes are public and can be changed at any time before the poll closes.
    - The aim of the game is to provoke debate. Post explaining why you voted the way you did, and why others should join you.
    - The one thing you can't do is vote based on anything other than the relevant category.
    - Voting closes in seven days.
     
  2. Vision

    Vision Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    950
    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    I've not visited either of these parks but have read a lot about them, but never really anything about their large carnivores. I'm not going to vote quite yet (since I'm not really sure what to vote for) but to spark conversation I thought I'd share the lists of large carnivores of both parks:

    Magdeburg:
    African wild dog
    Chinese dhole
    Bush dog
    Golden jackal

    Striped hyena
    African lion
    Carpathian lynx
    Siberian tiger
    Snow leopard

    Munchen:
    Brown bear
    Polar bear
    Eurasian wolf
    Maned wolf
    Arctic fox
    Golden jackal

    African lion
    Northern lynx
    Siberian tiger
    Fishing cat
    Wolverine

    South American sea lion

    (The ones in italics I wasn't sure if they'd be considered "large" enough, but I did find them noteworthy in this discussion)



    I think large carnivores is an interesting choice for these parks! There's arguments for both of them; Munchen has the more classic and 'complete' set of ABC large carnivores (including bears, dogs, cats and pinnipeds) , whereas Magdeburg seems to go for the less common species, while still having enough so the zoo doesn't feel as if it is missing something.

    I'd love to hear more about the exhibits or breeding results so I can use that info to make a conclusion and vote!
     
    KevinVar and CGSwans like this.
  3. SabineB

    SabineB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Aug 2013
    Posts:
    143
    Location:
    Cologne
    I went back and forth and back.

    Munich will be the winner once they finish their geo-zoo plannings and better the enclosures for their lions, leopards and their old 'cat-area'. But for now they are all negatives for me. A positive for Munich would be the polar area.

    Now I love the Magdburgs snow leopard enclosure and the striped hyena area, plus they are both breeding which is a super plus for Magdeburg. They have white lions, although the enclosure is a negative for me.

    All in all, for now I am voting for Magdeburg when we are talking large carnivores.
     
    CGSwans likes this.
  4. TZDugong

    TZDugong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    17 Nov 2017
    Posts:
    898
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    I’m going with Magdeburg. Munich has 3 more species but Magdeburg has much nicer species like Chinese Dhole, Carpathian Lynx and Golden Jackal.
     
  5. TheGerenuk

    TheGerenuk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    8 Sep 2017
    Posts:
    2,513
    Location:
    Brampton, Ontario, Canada
    I agree with Vision and TZDugong. When it comes to species, rarer is better than popular. Therefore, I'll vote for Magdeburg.
     
  6. Vision

    Vision Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    950
    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    I never said that, though.

    In fact, I think I actually disagree with that statement. I very much like when a zoo can offer a very wide range of species within a certain taxonomic group, to genuinely show the differences. Rarities, in my opinion, are not something that define a zoo, as they're very temporary; for example at the moment zoochatters consider Duisburg as fantastic, but would that still happen once the last river dolphin passes? I personally think it'd drop to the average German zoo level then (which, all things considering, is still very high).
    Popular animals, on the other hand, have the opportunity to make the zoo as a whole grow into something the public loves, something that can actively participate in conservation. Once a zoo has grown big enough, eventually rarities will almost always follow with that success; either via imports, or via a common species gradually becoming rarer in zoos (as we can see with, for example, pure Bengal tigers...)

    I think at the moment I'm more inclined to vote Munich, because they show a much wider range of large carnivores. Magdeburg has the rarer species overall, but doesn't have bears and pinnipeds (which in my opinion are just as relevant as dogs and cats are). Also, while less common than the average Munich large carnivore, it's not like there's a large carnivore at Magdeburg that really sticks out as something I would want/have to travel a long time for...
     
    Crowthorne, Mehdi, CGSwans and 3 others like this.
  7. Brum

    Brum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 May 2011
    Posts:
    3,120
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Easy decision, Madgeburg has dhole and striped hyaena. Madgeburg wins for me! :p
     
  8. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27 Oct 2008
    Posts:
    4,549
    Location:
    Europe
    Munich has the best Polar bear enclosure in Germany and also one of the best pinniped ones. The maned wolf one is also very appealing, but it is very hard to see them. The other enclosures are more standard, though the wolf enclosure is very appealing. The lion enclosure is extremely bad though, especially considering it's age...

    Magdeburg's enclosures are all fine, non outstanding but, except for the lion enclosure they are all very pleasant to the eye. So the enclosure quality is slightly more consistent without the highs and lows....

    It is a tough one but I am leaning towards Munich...
     
    FunkyGibbon, pipaluk and Vision like this.
  9. Vision

    Vision Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    950
    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    If they can pull off good bear and pinniped enclosures and have a well-represented set of large carnivores (cats, dogs, bears, and pinnipeds) then that settles it for me.
    Munich it is!
     
    pipaluk likes this.
  10. SabineB

    SabineB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Aug 2013
    Posts:
    143
    Location:
    Cologne
    Polar bears -> enclosure, as it has been revamped and reopened in 2010. Since then the breeding couple has produced twins a a female. the breeding male died mid-2017. So, the enclosure is good to go if you have a breeding couple (that said, if you have a breeding couple, the enclosure seems to be irrelevant as has been shown in Wuppertal)

    The revamp of the polar world has just been finished and the pinnipeds are back. breeding - i assume - is possible and we will see that shortly.

    here is the general status quo as of 2018:

    Lions - non breeding (two brothers) and a terrible enclosure
    single maile leopard Julius has left Munich en route Hannover
    Tiger - castrated male with female in ok enclosure
    african hunting dog has run out
    brown bears will run out
    mountain lions - non breeding
    fishcat - they received 1,0 from Port Lympne in 2017 (per ztl), good enclosure inside and outside

    as i said polar world - as finished in 2017 - is a good indicator for what is to come with the geo-zoo masterplan, but for now carnivores are not a highlight in Munich
     
    Vision likes this.
  11. pipaluk

    pipaluk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Feb 2012
    Posts:
    3,140
    Location:
    England
    When ignoring species held at both zoos and those in italics in the list, it basically comes down to 4 species at Magdeburg v 5 at Munich .
    Magdeburg - African Wild Dog, Snow Leopard , Dhole, Striped Hyaena

    Munich - brown bear , Polar bear, Wolf, Maned Wolf, South American Sea Lion .

    Personally, African Wild Dog and Wolf won't clinch it for either, I see too many of them , so it's 3 v 4.

    I'm not voting yet, if at all!
     
  12. pipaluk

    pipaluk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Feb 2012
    Posts:
    3,140
    Location:
    England
    I've looked at the voting and I've changed my mind, I have to vote ! In my opinion this should be the closest vote so far, but Munich is being hammered . Any zoo with Polar Bears should get my vote really and it's only the hyaena that made it a tough decision for me so I'm backing Munich for now!
     
    Last edited: 2 Mar 2018
    Vision likes this.
  13. TZDugong

    TZDugong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    17 Nov 2017
    Posts:
    898
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Very interesting! It’s fascinating to note the differences between North American zoo visitors and British zoo visitors.

    I’m pretty sure that you live in England and for you Polar Bears must be rare, as they are in only one British zoo (Yorkshire Wildlife Park). However for me,I can see Polar Bears at my local zoo anytime I want and many zoos close to me also have them. Therefore Polar Bears are not as important for me as they are for you. Alternatively, I bet many species in England would make my mouth water while not being as interesting to you.
     
  14. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    2,775
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Likewise, I'm voting for Munich unless otherwise convinced. The lion exhibit is a disappointment but the tigers, polar bears and wolves are all excellent. I'm also very much in the 'design over species rarity' faction.
     
  15. pipaluk

    pipaluk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Feb 2012
    Posts:
    3,140
    Location:
    England
    Won't argue with that, living in England Polar Bears are a real rarity. As I said, Striped Hyaena is even more difficult to see now, but I have seen them at 2 former English holders in the last 5 years, 3 in less than 10.
     
    Last edited: 2 Mar 2018
    TZDugong likes this.
  16. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    13 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    23,438
    Location:
    not travelling
    Pipaluk is named after a Polar Bear ;)
     
  17. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    16 May 2010
    Posts:
    12,292
    Location:
    UK
    This *is* a tough choice, but I reckon the consistency you speak of might well be the clinching factor for me - along with the fact that other than the aforementioned polar bear exhibit at Munich I much preferred the large carnivore exhibits at Magdeburg to those at Munich.

    Magdeburg it is.
     
  18. FunkyGibbon

    FunkyGibbon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    11 Jan 2015
    Posts:
    4,265
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    When I haven't visited either collection I'm trying to vote based on the arguments put forth in the thread itself (so a big thank you to those doing that sterling work). So far I'm leaning towards Munich; too much of what has been said about Magdeburg feels unremarkable. Which is not to say that it doesn't have a tasty line-up, but it could be tastier.
     
    pipaluk likes this.
  19. SabineB

    SabineB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    12 Aug 2013
    Posts:
    143
    Location:
    Cologne
    Now that the vote is over, I would like to comment on this. While I do believe that Munich has a fine polar bear enclosure, it is certainly not the best in Germany.

    I consider Nuremberg to have the best enclosure Germany and Karlsruhe, Gelsenkirchen and Hannover are equally as good as Munich closely followed by Bremerhaven.