ZooChat Cup S2 Match #10: Atlanta vs San Diego Zoo (1)

The mid sized zoo from the South against the "world class" California giant. And for this first time, reptiles and amphibians will be debated. Atlanta has the "Scaly Slimy Spectacular" building with many species housed there, and San Diego has their Reptile Walk, featuring the historic open air reptile house and multiple outdoor exhibits.

The concept behind this poll is explained here: ZooChat Cup Season 2

Tomorrow: Denver vs Woodland Park

 

Yeesh , could a moderator please change the title from match 9, to match 10. I'm sorry for all these typos but I didn't have time to make the thread so I'm on mobile and I have to rush out this morning.

 

Tough one! San Diego is absolutely fantastic for reptiles with a mix of both indoor or outdoor exhibits and some very rare species. Reptile Walk is excellent with very good enclosures, but the Reptile House itself isn't anything extraordinary imo. It's just rows of terrariums moving around the perimeter with little to no signs on conservation or any sort of education other than the species signs themselves. Meanwhile, Atlanta's reptile house is supposedly superb. I've not been unfortunately, but I've heard it's arguably the best in the country and also home to some very rare and endangered species such as Arakan Forest Turtle.

Tough call, and I'll wait for others to maybe give more information on Atlanta before voting.

~Thylo

 

While I fear Atlanta will lose, simply due to lack of knowledge, I think it has one of the better reptile houses in the US, both in terms of collection and exhibitry. It seems like Fort Worth’s MOLA but on steroids:

I’ve never really seen the mass appeal to many of San Diego’s reptile house, but their Reptile Walk is phenomenal. Both the exhibitry and collection of both zoos is great.

 

I think that MOLA at Fort Worth Zoo is the best single Reptile House that I've ever toured but overall San Diego might be America's #1 zoo for reptiles and amphibians.

In this latest poll I voted for San Diego Zoo and here is an excerpt from my 2017 road trip thread that explains my reasoning:

Reptiles & Amphibians – With approximately 200 species there is no shortage of truly excellent exhibits for cold-blooded animals. I’m not sure how many species are actually on show at any one time but San Diego is likely the best zoo in the country for reptiles and amphibians. The 1930’s-era Reptile House has 50 terrariums filled with venomous snakes, monitor lizards, pythons and a vast collection. Then there are the trio of fairly new Reptile Walk buildings which are all more than adequate; the Gharial pool with its beautiful crocodilians and 13 turtle species in a gorgeous habitat; the Galapagos Tortoise series of exhibits; a large Komodo Dragon habitat; Chinese Alligators; vast lizard “pits” for Cuban Iguanas, Anegada Ground Iguanas and Black-Throated Monitors; plus there is close to 20 species in Elephant Odyssey with the two streamside enclosures, the 12-foot high rattlesnake terrarium and the exhibits just after the walk-through tunnel in the middle of the complex. The Slender-Snouted Crocodile and West African Crocodile exhibits in Lost Forest are both amongst my favourites, plus there is a row of 8 spacious terrariums near the Slender-Snouted Crocodiles and somewhat hidden behind a wall.

 

Scaly Slimy Spectacular looks like an amazing exhibit and I think it alone would beat most other zoos in this category. But San Diego's reptile collection awed me last summer when I visited. To me, almost all of their reptile exhibits were above average or amazing. The amount of rare species that they had was unreal. And their collection isn't limited to the Reptile Walk like most other zoos. Like Snowleopard said, SD has high quality exhibits in the Lost Forest and Elephant Odyssey areas. Looking at the Zoo Atlanta map (ugh...), The only herp I can see outside of the SSS are the Komodo dragons.

Plus, any zoo with both of my favorite reptiles (gharial and giant tortoise) gets a boost. Unless I can see a more complete species list from SSS (the zoo's website lists like 7 reptiles and 3 amphibians...), my vote is with San Diego.

 

@Echobeast I believe that the SSS building at Zoo Atlanta only has around 70-75 species and approximately a third of what San Diego Zoo has in its collection.

San Diego has loads of well-furnished terrariums for its cold-blooded animals, but also a long list of spectacular reptile exhibits as well. It is truly one of the world's great zoos for reptiles and amphibians.

 

I believe this might help: ZOO MAP

 

I'm still doing research on these zoos, but I will say this: Some may doubt that Atlanta can hold its own against the number 1 seed, but I think its relatively new Reptile House could rival San Diego on the exhibit field, and on its website Atlanta lists no fewer than 6 different conservation programs that it directs or participates in just for reptiles and amphibians. The only field in which SD is a clear winner is species count, but even then we have to consider what the number of species on display is... the margin might not be as large as one would think.

 

This was really cool! Thanks!

 

So... voting for San Diego by ignoring its competition? Nice. Also: part of a review isn’t an argument. It’s a review.

The fact that SDZ’s reptile house is old doesn’t mean anything. Atlanta’s, however, should be commended for being new. It utilizes new technology and was the first (and perhaps the only) reptile house to be gold LEED certified. This is a remarkable feat and truly embodies what Zoo Atlanta is doing for conservation, both far away and at home.

Locally, Zoo Atlanta is involved with a diamondback terrapin hatchling raise and release program. The hatchlings are exhibited and usually heavily publicized though the zoo’s social media, raising awareness of the species’ decline. The same is true for eastern indigo snake, which the zoo has worked with for a long time.

Internationally, the conservation record of Zoo Atlanta is remarkable. They have established several study and breeding programs for Guatemalan beaded lizard, which went from 0 to 4 holders in recent years and is a species which Zoo Atlanta has had great success with. San Diego used to have the species, but they dropped the program for nonapparently reason.

Perhaps the best initiative that Zoo Atlanta participated in is the Amphibian Ark. This organization has been instrumental in the ex situ conservation of multitudes of amphibians. Zoo Atlanta has been the first to import many species, and the most successful program has arguably been the Panamanian golden frog. Other species we see in zoos today that are a result of the AArk are crowned tree frogs and lemur leaf frogs. Some are less common than others: Zoo Atlanta and the Atlanta Botanical Gardens cooperate specifically on a number of species, which is the reason they are the only institutions exhibiting glass frogs. Some other choice species that Atlanta works with include coquis, robber frogs, and over 5 species of glass frog, last I heard.

Beyond amphibians, captive breeding programs are still something that Atlanta excels in. They are one of the most active participants in the Turtle Survival Alliance, and care for numerous species of Chelonian. Parker’s snake necked turtle is possibly the most common species of note, but they also have Sulawesi forest turtle, Arakan forest turtle, ploughshare tortoise, bowsprit tortoise, and more. All of these conservation programs occur behind the scenes, while still having a fabulous on exhibit presentation of species.

San Diego, meanwhile... the only reptile-based conservation effort of theirs I could find was about Caribbean iguanas. The majority of this work is carried out at the park, so it effectively means the zoo has no reptile or amphibian based conservation, and it falls to Atlanta on this aspect of the category. San Diego has a great species list, but Atlanta, with their arguably higher quality exhibits and certainly their better conservation efforts, takes the cake.

 

Well no: Part of his review actually is an argument, considering snowleopard is giving his opinions to sway peoples votes.

Atlanta's reptile house and conservation efforts are really, really impressive. There is absolutely no denying that. However, with over 200 species, exhibits that are mostly equal to or in some cases better than Atlanta, plus giving smaller reptiles their own outdoor habitats, San Diego will get my vote, for now. However, I'm open to switching my vote in the future.

 

It is worth noting many of the species housed within the buildings of Reptile Walk are given rather small roaming spaces. True, many of the outdoors species enjoy much more space than some zoos give them, but even rarities such as Malaysian snail-eating turtle are confined to rather small spaces within the buildings.

Atlanta has recognized that space and outdoors are key to reptile husbandry. As can be seen from the map @Coelacanth18 posted, many of SSS’s exhibits are quite large. Additionally, the zoo’s off-exhibit reptile breeding center is entirely outdoors, improving husbandry and breeding results. Many species are cycled on and off exhibit to expose them to natural weather, and this key part of their husbandry and exhibitry is another reason why Atlanta can take down San Diego.

 

I did see that some of their herps get a huge amount of space in the SSS. You are making a lot of great points and I am learning a lot about Atlanta's herp collection and it makes me want to visit even more! I will say that having lots of reptiles in year-round outdoor exhibits trumps an outdoor off-exhibit breeding facility purely from a visitor's perspective. San Diego has gharials, Galapagos giant tortoises, Chinese alligators, iguanas, West African dwarf crocodiles, freshwater crocodiles, slender-snouted crocodiles, and others all outdoors.

In terms of other herp related conservation efforts, San Diego Zoo Global also manages the Gharial Conservation Fund, helped operate the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center in Las Vegas, is a huge player in Galapagos tortoise conservation on the islands, is one of only two zoos to hold a breeding assurance colony of tuatara, and does a whole lot of work with the global amphibian crisis by providing funds, personnel, and breeding assurance colonies. They do have a lot of their conservation work done at the park. But because SDZSP and SDZ work so well together, in terms of their conservation efforts, they are shared and you can't hold that against them especially since a vast majority of the herps they do conservation work for are on display at the zoo and not the park.

 

This is one of the very few possible match-ups where I’ve been to both zoos in question, and wow, is Atlanta unlucky. There are perhaps as few as two zoos that could beat it on this category and San Diego - which I feel relatively secure in declaring the best generalist zoo for reptile and amphibians in the world - is one.

 

I did a quick google search for the Gharial Conservation Fund and only came up with the Gharial a Conservation Alliance, to which SDZ is a donor (like numerous other zoos, including some which do not have gharials). I think the DTCC is a dull point for SDZ considering it closed due to lack of funding in 2014... if they can provide $69 million for a children’s zoo they can get a fraction of that for desert tortoises. Whenever I search “San Diego Zoo Galapagos Conservation” I only get results about the tortoises that the zoo keeps. I know San Diego has worked with the Charles Darwin Research Station in their hand-reading program for mangrove finches, but not for tortoises. I visited CDRS two months ago. They (along with the Ecuadorian government) control all tortoise conservation on the islands. SDZ’s tuatara were previously considered unique because they are from Brothers Island, however, recent genetic studies have found them to not be distinct from the more common tuatara. So, in reality, SDZ is one of four US zoos with tuatara and the only one which has never exhibited them. They are kept off exhibit for “breeding purposes” despite the fact that they have only recently reached maturity and will likely not breed for a few more years. SDZ keeps no “breeding assurance colonies” for amphibians as far as I’m aware. I’m not even sure that they breed their Panamanian golden frogs. While they may provide funds and personnel, so does Atlanta, who has also taken it into their own hands to ensure that several species are established in captivity. San Diego isn’t responsible for any new species being brought into captivity, but I hadn’t even heard of rusty robber frogs until they were brought to El Valle as a result of the Amphibian Ark.

And this is one point where I think our arguments most differ: this match is strictly about SDZ, so while I acknowledge the work of SDZG for them, SDZSP is considered a competitor of SDZ. SDZ exhibits some of what the latter has, but SDZSP’s breeding programs for Jamaican iguana (which SDZ does not even have) hold far more weight to me and for the purposes of the challenge are not connected to SDZ.

 

@jayjds2 did an excellent job in their first post of summing up what I had also been finding. I didn't want to make a determination before reading up more on SDZ's herp-related conservation, but I've had a difficult time finding much. SDZ Global's website does not list any concrete conservation work for herps beyond the iguana work. Any additional info about SDZ's herp accomplishments would be welcome, but I disagree with @snowleopard and @CGSwans about this being a done deal; I'm voting for Atlanta.

Also one point about outdoor enclosures for herps: climate is a limiting factor. Most zoos cannot exhibit reptiles outdoors year-round like San Diego can, and so they don't invest in several large, outdoor enclosures. Just food for thought.

Edit: One additional thing I've found is that San Diego Zoo also breeds Southwestern Pond Turtles for release, although it is also not the only zoo to do this.

 

From the website:
In 2012, renowned geneticist Oliver Ryder, Ph.D., was invited to an international workshop on the Galápagos Islands to plan the next 10 years of Galápagos tortoise conservation efforts. He is the director of genetics at the San Diego Zoo Institute for Conservation Research and Kleberg Chair, as well as a creative problem solver with a deep capacity to understand the big conservation picture. The workshop utilized the expertise of people around the world in many different fields, including ecology, biology, horticulture, herpetology, physiology, genetics, and wildlife diseases, among others. Dr. Ryder was particularly pleased that the people who would be managing the areas and implementing the ideas, like park guards and local ecologists, were full participants.

Issues facing the delicate ecosystems of different islands, like invasive plant species (guava and blackberries), health and recruitment of wildlife populations, the elimination of nonnative species like goats and rats, and the containment of farm animals to protect native species, were addressed. “The San Diego Zoo has a long history of contributing to Galápagos tortoise conservation,” said Dr. Ryder. “This workshop was another great opportunity to provide thoughtful ideas and suggestions to the Galápagos authorities to guide conservation strategies into the next decade."

They don't necessarily need to be managing individual animals in order to be contributing to the conservation of the species.

From the website about mantella frogs:

The San Diego Zoo began exhibiting mantellas in the late 1980s and has successfully bred and maintained the critically endangered golden mantellas and bronze-backed mantellas...

...The San Diego Zoo is involved in breeding two mantella species to learn more about them and to help preserve these jewels of the rain forest for future generations.

About Panamanian golden frogs:

In fact, the Zoo has been so successful in its breeding efforts that we have been selected to house some extremely important “founders,” or wild-caught members, of the managed-care population as a safeguard for the species. These frogs are of great importance genetically to the breeding program, and it is an honor to be selected to work with them.

Since 2003, when San Diego Zoo Global received 20 young Panamanian golden frogs, we have had almost 500 hatch here...

Under poison frogs:

San Diego Zoo Global’s scientists have been working with other scientists to survey and document the impact of chytrid in Panama.

Under frog and toad:

San Diego Zoo Global has long supported the Panama Amphibian Rescue and Conservation Project to save frogs through biosecurity consultation and education, providing disease testing to over 80 zoos nationwide. We have developed disease-control guidelines for a variety of endangered amphibians, including the Kihansi spray toad, a species from Tanzania that currently exists only in zoos.

...San Diego Zoo Global works with its staff to help keep this valuable population of amphibians healthy and sustainable by providing disease-screening services. Assisting in coordination of activities and providing educational resources is the Amphibian Ark, a joint effort of the World Association of Zoos and Aquariums and the International Union for Conservation of Nature...

...San Diego Zoo Global is working to restore the ecosystem balance in the San Jacinto Mountains through our captive-breeding and reintroduction efforts for the mountain yellow-legged frog. Since 2010, we have successfully reintroduced zoo-bred mountain yellow-legged frog tadpoles into the wild at Hall Canyon on the University of California’s James San Jacinto Mountains Reserve, where the frogs had been extinct for more than 40 years. Radio transmitters in frog-sized backpacks have revealed a healthy 95-percent survival rate the first month and are now breeding in the wild!...

...We’re also gearing up to establish and freeze amphibian cell cultures in our Frozen Zoo® to help conserve the genetic diversity of frog and toad species. We’re hoping to team up with other zoos and field researchers to collect additional amphibian samples to increase our genome bank.

Even if SDZ has never brought an endangered herp into captivity, I don't see how that hurts them in this competition. We could talk all day about what zoo does more conservation work for herps but at the end of the day, they both do a lot of work. Your posts are making it seem like SDZ does little to nothing in terms of captive breeding or field work for herps when the opposite is true. In terms of this competition, I don't feel like comparing conservation efforts is relevant or constructive as all AZA zoos do their part and work together.

SDZSP is a competitor when SDZ and SDZSP are matched up against one another. That hasn't happened yet. Until then, there is no way to distinguish if SDZG's conservation efforts should be attributed to either facility unless specified. Because of this, there is no good reason to dismiss their efforts and claim what Atlanta is doing is remarkable compared to SDZ.

 

Many taxonomist still consider Brothers Island Tuatara to be unique.

 

This is quite an interesting matchup, much better than I expected. I have not been to Atlanta (even though I've been to the city!), so I'll just give my thoughts about San Diego.

I found the reptile house to be average to slightly above average. The exhibits themselves are decent, there aren't any mind-blowing ones, but there aren't any bad ones either. Most are just so-so. I wasn't a huge fan of the houses collection, I'm not much of a snake person, and the focus of the house is definitely on snakes. If you like snakes then I'm sure you'll love this house.

The outdoor reptile bit, I think it's called Reptile Walk, is mind-blowingly good, I think it might be the best section of the zoo. The highlight of this zone was undoubtedly Gharial River, a spacious and beautiful exhibit for Gharials and around ten different types of turtles. I'd rank it in my top 5 favourite exhibits of all time. The rest of the exhibits are almost uniformly awesome with great open air exhibits for lots of small reptiles, something I have yet to see at another zoo. Did I also mention that there's a Turtle house! It's quite small, but still, any zoo who has a house for Turtles deserves some points in my books.

While these two areas contain the bulk of San Diego's collection, there are still a few more Reptile and Amphibians exhibits dotted around the zoo. In the new Africa Rocks area there's quite a nice African Dwarf Crocodile exhibit; Elephant Odyssey has some wonderful native reptile exhibits and the largest Rattlesnake exhibit I've ever seen and there’s a nice exhibit for a crocodilians species I’ve forget next to the Pygmy Hippos.

So even though Atlanta looks to be a very good zoo for Reptiles and Amphibians, I think I’m voting for San Diego. The collection is amongst the largest in the country and most of the exhibits are world-class, while Atlanta’s exhibits look to be also world-class, but there collection isn’t as good as San Diego.

One question about Atlanta, are basically all their Reptiles and Amphibians in the SSS house?