ZooChat 'Embrace the ABCs' Challenge - Mammals

The issues I have here are twofold. One, it potentially gives players who could complete an advantage, since it would be better to get 25 species + 6 bonus points than 26 + 4 (probably). Secondly, it specifically addresses the concerns of one constituency whilst ignoring others (potentially, there is some question as to whether Australians can get to 24 or not).

Secondly, as alluded to above it's genuinely possible that 25 species plus a bonus of 5 is better than 26 plus 6, since once you get the 5 they can't get the 6, if you see what I mean. So it shouldn't be thought of as a penalty per se, it's just an unequal response to an unequal situation.

This would certainly qualify you for the dispensation to only see 25, although I will point out that you routinely travel all over the US, just as many ZooChatters travel around Europe on a sort of biannual basis.


As I said, in any future challenges I will try introduce a system that allows anyone to choose to record less than 26 in a way that (barely) disadvantages nor advantages them, but I'm reluctant to add more complexity this time around. And I think the current solution does achieve that goal, it just does so in a way that requires my intervention, which is inelegant.

 

As Chli says, this is a part of the game. One of the reasons I like the concept is that I don't have to give you a species list.

You are right though, in that I also haven't found a database where you can search for mammal genera beginning with certain letters. There are less class-specialised ones, but I found picking through all the invertebrates to be very tiresome. Basically, ZTL will get you pretty far.

 

This is skirting dangerously close to talking about which zoos one should visit...

 

You're alright.

 

Paignton Zoo (09/01/2020)

Nasua nasua, Ring-tailed Coati.

Current List

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G: Gorilla gorilla, Western Lowland Gorilla.
H:
I:
J:
K:
L:
M:
N: Nasua nasua, Ring-tailed Coati.
O:
P: Pongo pygmaeus, Bornean Orangutan.
Q:
R:
S: Suricata suricatta, Meerkat.
T: Tapir terrestris, South American Tapir.
U:
V:
W:
X:
Y:
Z:

Points: 15

 

@Dassie rat Please read the rules! You have to visit zoos and see the animals, you can't just list ones you can 'think of'

 

Then perhaps make an adaptable solution depending on what region a particular user is in. If Chli thinks that 25 is easy, in Australia, then my proposal checks out for another region of the world, though, and I suspect most players will be from Australia/nearby, the US, or Europe so there is really not much of a problem at all.

While that certainly is possible, you could instead standardize the podium with an equal number of points added on to all 3 scores. The "sense of urgency" you hope to inspire by making the challenge end so quickly is really enough pressure to complete your list first, I think. Furthermore, it is already unequal in terms of this time limit. Had you posted this a few days earlier I would have a minimum of 15 points, probably more. But you didn't, and as a result I can't be a strong competitor until much later in the year- after the challenge has potentially closed. Circumstances will prevent many zoochatters from even being able to adequately complete, as a result of this - so I think the situation is already so unequal that perhaps my suggestion would balance it at least a little bit more.

While that is true, I do not often in my plans include such out-of-the-way places that have jaguarundi - in fact, in over 150 zoos visited in the US, I've only seen them once! Of the two other species I've alluded to, I've never seen one, and never seen the other in certainty, despite multiple visits to the zoo it's at; as I mentioned, it is essentially impossible to see on-exhibit. I'm not going to undergo serious expense or detour on another trip (as I had to go several hours out-of-the-way for jaguarundi when I did see them) and it's unlikely I will be able to see any of the species this year. There's one that's a possibility, but it's just that...

I think to be penalized, even by something as small as one point, for being unable to take the time and money for one species is a little bit much. But it seems that excusing one species would be a good idea for all regions, not just the US, given the rarity of some letters in scientific nomenclature.

This is certainly necessary, and given the disparity of species kept across the globe there won't be a one-size-fits-all challenge. I think given the already apparent complexity of the challenge (you can't just look at a species and know if you're going to use it or not, it's not obvious, despite earlier comments you've made) that a modification in any way to balance the playing table a little bit would not be amiss.

 

The solution I have implemented is exactly this; it takes into account the region a player is and adapts the requirements for them accordingly.

After the challenge is finished I will look at how the ending played out and then in future versions there may well be adjustments to how the bonus system works. At the moment I have adopted a structure that incentivises faster play. Time will tell to what extent that was necessary or advisable.

This isn't unequal at all. All players received the information about the challenge at the same time. I get that it feels bad because in the time between January 1st and me opening this challenge you visited several zoos, but that doesn't reflect on the rules or structure. It's not an annual challenge and so there was no reason for it to open on Jan 1st. I did think about waiting 'til spring when more people would be active, but chose not to for one reason: if this plays slow it will still be ongoing at that point, and if it plays fast then it will be done and in late spring another one can start (no prizes for guessing what that would be).

I've already explained above that it isn't a penalty.

It isn't a good idea for most parts of Europe. I am yet to come across a letter, or hear about one from another player, where there is a serious issue if you are playing in zoo-rich areas like the UK, Benelux, Germany or Czechia.

That's not quite what I meant. You can look at a species and know if it's usable. Whether or not you should use it is more difficult...

 

I have seen all the mammals, except the indri, in zoos. I saw the indri in the wild. I accept that some of the mammals aren't ABC species, but most of them are.

 

You still need to read the rules.

 

This challenge isn't retrospective though.

 

Not really - it's a one size fits all, in a case where one size does not fit all. What I meant was a different approach to solving the problem based on the region of the world they're located in. In the US, it is really difficult to find one letter, and reasonably challenging to find 2 or 3 more. So only excusing one letter still presents a fair level of challenge. You feel that Europe, particularly several regions within it, have no extreme difficulty in completing the alphabet - so instead, no letters are excused, but the same penalty that would occur after an excused letter in the US, would occur to any letter in Europe. And then similar adaptations where necessary for the rest of the world - it would require some amount of work, but it is fair in this way.

My point was that it was more unequal because of the timing, not because of the rules of the challenge. I failed to explain this as I had intended to, so my apologies for presenting that unfinished thought. What I meant was that based on the time of year this challenge was established, it is inconveniencing a lot of forum members who have other commitments, such as school or work that quickly pick up after the new year. This is certainly a factor for me and outside of one zoo visit soon I doubt I'll be able to pick up many more points for a significant period of time. I know many others who suffer the same problem. However, because you...

if other members who do not have such commitments will be able to outcompete a larger majority of the forum. As such, this is one reason why challenges until now have had a defined period of time. A way to alleviate this would be at the very least, announcing the challenge well in advance so that serious competitors may make plans, but more generally, a time boundary that is imposed by you, rather than the competitors as a whole, would level the playing field more.

See my points above about regional variability in terms of you regulating the challenge. Zoo-rich as some of these areas may be, this is simply not the case on a global, or even a continental scale. That's why an adaptive approach is necessary.

Not unless you know the scientific name of each and every mammal you see. Some will know this better than others, but there is still a lot of work to be done if a zoo has inadequate signage. You have not given us a master list of mammals to reference, either. Some members will thus struggle to plan before a visit, too. For example, @birdsandbats stated he can't determine a Z species in US zoos. I've seen a relatively common one in over 20, but there's no list he can search to determine what this might be.
Such intense micromanagement of lists, especially in quick succession, if visiting multiple zoos for multiples day, is really a problem that this challenge has. Other challenges allow retrospective listing, but the time constraints on this challenge make that impossible. People embarking on such journeys might not have time to figure out which species they should use; they're planning their next day of an otherwise fun visit, not fiddling with numbers. Timed record keeping is not enjoyable - it's not a struggle I'm likely to face but I assume others will.