After being away for five days I've just come across this thread. Why is the female silvery being sent to Port Lympe and not the male here? Is there a real reason why Taronga couldn't have both species of gibbon? 37 species of exotic mammals does not a zoo make. Is the focus too much on elephants? Phoenix says that the zoos are really only a business and a poorly operated one at that. At least Mogo has sound financial reasons for bringing in white lions, people flock to see them. The Proposed exemption re moving the silvery out of Australia does not "meet the requirements of s.303CG of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (the Act), because it does not meet any of the eligible non-commercial purposes." I don;t understand this and so could someone explain it for me.
why does anyone care if the silvery gibbon moves to the UK? obviously its because she has an option for a mate there. i mean think about it. PL sent the last gibbon to australia, that died (anyone know why) so fairs, fair. its taronga's turn to send one back. its a non issue. people in the UK could just as easily say "why don't they send their gibbon to us". 37 species of exotic animal does make for a zoo. hell i could make a pretty good zoo with 15 species. the question is - do we have any faith that the zoos will manage 37 species any better than they did 50? with all the mistakes they continue to make - i'm not convinced.
I think the point here Phoenix is the UK have many species of exotic animals and we in this country are limited to far fewer species with many species being phased out with the "chosen few" to stay, In this case the silvery gibbon appeared to be one of the chosen few so should stay, you have said yourself about how many animal species we have and are losing
I ask this because it appears that yet again an Australian zoo has changed its mind about what animals it wants and so yet another space for a species in the region is lost. Start/stop etc I know you could but you have imagination and 37 species isn't a lot. I know that we are not suppose to be stamp collectors but still. . yes well, I'm leaning towards your point of view here.
Hi Hairymoloch, No, PL has been active in in situ conservation of moloch gibbons for years in Jawa. It is one of the co-fundors of the recent conservation workshop with Perth Zoo on moloch gibbons in Jawa. Aside, from much more ... which would sit better in the PL/Howletts forums. K.B.
jay - i should explain myself better. the silvery gibbon breeding program is, from what i know, an international program. this is because the captive population outside of indonesia has limited genetics and size. now i have no problem with australian zoos being part of an international program. no opposition at all. whilst splitting small populations over different continents can be inpractical - it has some benefits. however, it is an international program. so whilst its fair and logical that as the silvery gibbon population expands other australian zoos get on board, its worth remembering that we do have a regional program for two other species of gibbon - neither which taronga holds. i was fine with taronga importing a mate for their australian born silvery. but i'm just as fine with them sending it (back?) overseas. in reality, they probably should have of provided spaces for at least one if not two of the other gibbon species before they chose to hold silveries.
on a side note - i don't think we can EVER have too many gibbon species. i absolutely adore gibbons - they are definitely my favorite primates. they breed well, are fascinating to watch and are totally deserving of a much higher profile and "flagship species" status. if i owned my own zoo they are without doubt the first species of primate i would wish to acquire and i would probably try and get myself a pair of all the 5 species in australia!
Phoenix I understand what you are saying and it all makes sense, as it usually does with you. Do you know whether there is any problem with holding more than one species of gibbon in close proximity to each other?
well some zoos such as CWSR and mogo have kept mixed species pairs of gibbons for company. in fact, some gibbon species naturally hybridise in the wild (from memory: think lar and agile and possibly muellers and another species). we are really lucky in australasia to have 3 species the zoos seem committed to. likewise those three species represent the 3 distinct branches of the gibbon family tree. hopefully, australia or the UK can get some new blood for the silveries and we can get some unrelated pairs in the program. but i'm just happy that the taronga animal has gone to be paired somewhere. does anyone know what happened to tarongas other gibbon? why it died? the two never reproduced. am i right in assuming they never really bonded?
just thinking about the silvery gibbons some more.... the male that died at taronga must have (unfortunately) been the imported animal. the female being exported must be perth bred. because if it was the other way round and the female was the imported animal then surely a new mate, a sibling to its original, would have just been brought in from perth. so we actually have both male and female full siblings to tarongas animal still in the country and no suitable mates for any of them. hope that puts the export somewhat into perspective.
When is the gibbon leaving? It was still at the zoo earlier this month. Where are they planning to get the white cheeked gibbons from?
There isn't per se a problem with housing all gibbons side by side but aggression and limited breeding may well be a side affect. Anybody familiar with the old Perth gibbon row, once held pairs of white-handeds, agiles, hoolocks, silveries, muellers, white-cheeked, siamangs and even a kloss (not necessarily all at one time). I can't say whether the breeding was particularly successful, but the exhibits had limited viewing between each exhibit. Similarly Twycross in the UK have held large numbers of various species of gibbon side by side. Current thinking suggests that gibbon pairs of any species do better with a bit of distance between them, which helps in establishing a defined territory.
Apart from the other issue in population management, the bureacracy as always is mind-boggling and certainly not in the interest of species conservation at all (in that respect most legislation whether Australian or European fails to address the real issues). I remain concerned as to the long term future of most exotics if there will not be a fundamental re-think in the approach to imports/exports. If we all fail, ... you will all have to contend yourselves with just local fauna and some alien invasives.
At Twycross they tend to keep different species next to each other e.g. Pileated, Lar, Pileated, White Cheeked. So pairs of the same species aren't adjacent. But all are relatively close together in 'run' style enlosures. Some species there breed well, others not.
Update on Gorilla situation at Melbourne? Can anyone supply an update on the Melbourne Gorillas? Rigo has been in the group many months now and I don't think he is mating the females. Still correct? If so are they going to 1. try AI ( using which male?) or 2. swap the Silverbacks over again or 3. leave things as they are?
