Join our zoo community

Are the WDCS against cetaceans in captivity?

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by sealion, 29 May 2010.

  1. Chlidonias

    Chlidonias Moderator Staff Member 15+ year member

    Joined:
    13 Jun 2007
    Posts:
    23,442
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Sorry but this made me laugh. Where do you get your information from? Octopus do not live long in captivity because they do not live long full-stop. All species grow extremely rapidly and then die after breeding. Small species can have a lifespan of as little as six months. Most species live between one and three years. Even the Pacific giant octopus only lives five to eight years maximum. Because most Aquariums get their octopuses as adults they are already at least quarter of the way through their life cycle.

    Octopuses can be, and are being, kept very successfully all over the world by both private hobbyists and public aquariums. Your statement that they become ill within two weeks of being taken into captivity is not supported by my own experiences with a large number of octopuses, almost all of which adapted quickly to captivity and lived out a normal lifespan (those which did not were released again).

    Your other statement that "they do NOT breed" in captivity is quite blatantly untrue. The only thing preventing captive reproduction is the octopuses' own cannibalistic tendencies -- you cannot keep two octopuses in the same tank without one being killed and eaten, so introductions between male and female need to be undertaken carefully. There are a number of Aquariums that breed octopuses: here are some photos that I just took today of a New Zealand octopus and her eggs (laid yesterday)
    http://www.zoochat.com/399/nz-octopus-pinnoctopus-cordiformis-eggs-154779/
    http://www.zoochat.com/399/eggs-nz-octopus-pinnoctopus-cordiformis-154780/
    http://www.zoochat.com/399/eggs-nz-octopus-pinnoctopus-cordiformis-154781/
     
  2. John Dineley

    John Dineley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    559
    Location:
    London
    I am sorry but with respect we do not know what ‘Keiko’ died of because no bonfida post-morten of the animal was undertaken.

    Sorry again, here are the actual facts regarding ‘Keiko’ and his rehab.

    Keiko the killer whale

    Please also read the link to the copy of the paper recently published in 2009 in the peer-review journal Marine Mammal Science. He never was observed hunting and feeding himself successfully and he went missing for sometime when he was ‘released’ by his new owners the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) as (IMHO) they realised he would never integrate back to a wild whale pod. He then made his way to Norway were he was found begging for food, hardly the actions of an animal integrated back into the wild!

    Keiko was in his pen in Iceland from 1998 he died in Norway in 2003 so I don't understand your comment regarding "7 months"

    I also disagree with your statement that ‘Keiko’ would have die even if he was in captivity of the illness that killed him because as I understand it there was no experience marine mammal vet present at the Norway site and there was also no way to do a full examination on this animal.

    Many? No they haven’t. Certainly not properly run scientifically published studies.

    Only two such projects am I aware of:

    WELLS,R.S., K. BASSOS-HULL AND K. S. NORRIS. 1998. Experimental return to the wild of two bottlenose dolphins. Marine Mammal Science 14:51–71.

    GALES,N., AND K. WAPLES. 1993. The relationship and release of bottlenose dolphins from Atlantis Marine Park, Western Australia. Aquatic Mammals 19:49–59.

    The first one above involved young male animals deliberate caught and held for two years and then return to their place of capture. The other was of long-term captives and the off-spring from an aquarium in Perth Australia. The fate of all these animals is unknown but what is known is that a number did not re-adapt and had to be returned to captive care.

    More information can be found here:

    Releasing Captives Back to the Wild

    Yes animal rights activists do cite various projects on their web sites but these have never been followed through and were inconclusive.

    The UK Into The Blue Project with three ex captive dolphins is hailed a success by activists but their is no evidence they the animals survived.

    INTO THE BLUE - What ever became of "Missie", "Silver" and "Rocky"

    An illegal release by activist Ric O’Barry ended with the animals having to be recaptured in a poor physical state with animal dying some years later due to a long-term health problem developed due to this trauma. O’Barry was prosecuted and fined.

    THE SUGARLOAF DOLPHIN RELEASES

    I am sorry but the evidence for this is not as compelling as many think, see this paper here.

    Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans<BR> (Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises)

    And another review here:

    Bibliographic Guide to Dolphin Intelligence

    Anyway, regardless of a human assumption of ‘intelligence’ why should ‘lesser’ animals be treated differently.
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2010
  3. John Dineley

    John Dineley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    559
    Location:
    London
    What skin problems? Bottlenose dolphins spend most of the lives near or on the water surface.

    I spent most of my career working with marine mammals including dolphins and I am not aware of the systematic prescription of either tranquillisers or antidepressants – and I do know people at Sea World.

    The only time I have ever been aware of the prescription of these drugs for zoo animals is for genuine veterinary reasons. As I said, I do not know of these drugs being given to these animals on a day to day basis and you certainly would not be giving these to animals in a training situation.

    The whole issue of survivorship of cetaceans in captive care is still even now being used by animal-rights activist and to suggest that captive survivorship has not improved since the 1970s is nonsense.

    See link below:

    http://www.rosmarus.com/Download/Survival.pdf


    I think you need to go away and do some real research on this matter as zoological collections are not just about breeding endangered species but also research and education. I would suggest you read the work of the late Dr Kenneth Norris. There are many scientist and researchers who belief that research on captive cetaceans is as valid as that of animals in the wild.
     
  4. John Dineley

    John Dineley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    559
    Location:
    London
    Here's WDCS's latest bit of fun.

    UK based Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS) is lobbying the Indian Government to ban dolphinaria

    They actually spend money on a "Captivity Programme Manager". Money well spent. :rolleyes:

    Although much as they like to think so, they did close down any dolphinaria in the UK it's a bit more complicated. See my comments here:

    UK Dolphinaria
     
  5. John Dineley

    John Dineley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jan 2009
    Posts:
    559
    Location:
    London
    Can we have a reference for these figures and not one from an animal-rights web site but a scientific peer review journal.

    I would also add that using percentages is very misleading if you do not include the actual data numbers. Since Seaworld has the largest number of captive bred orca in the world can you explain why they have a lower than average figure? You may say that they have a higher infant mortally rate but then they have more births. You could, for example, have an aquarium which has a one and only birth in a five year period and the animal is still alive and they will rightly say they have 100% breeding success rate - but it's only one animal but they could say that on paper they have a better success rate than Seaworld!

    You may also be interested in this link.

    Baby orca lost battle against potent storm

    Paul Cottrell, marine mammal co-ordinator with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, said yesterday....The death rate among orca calves in resident populations is steep, as high as 40 per cent over the first year.