Ok so the elephant debate is always on going so I thought I would start a thread dedicated to the entire program in Australia. Elephants for me are a passion (I was an elephant keeper for a short time when I first left school). There are quite a few threads dedicated to elephants in Aus so I thought it might be better if we put it all in the one spot. This thread can be used to discuss plans for current collections, future plans of institutes currently housing them and those that might be interested in the future. anything you want to do with elephants. Below are the Numbers of elephants currently held in Australia - If I have forgotten any please add them. I've started with privately owned elephants. AGES MAY BE OUT A BIT Australia Zoo - These animals are still owned by Brenton Bullen - 3 animals ASIAN Siam - Female - 53 Sabu - Female - 52 Bimbo - Female - 51 Perry Bros. Circus - Owned by the Maynard's - 2 Animals ASIAN Minyak - Female - ? Saigon - Female - ? Taronga Zoo Sydney - 6 animals ASIAN Pak Boon - Female - 18 Tang Mo - Female - 11 Tong Dee - Female - 10 Porntip - Female - 18 Gung - Male - 10 Luk Chai - Male - 1 (close enough) Taronga Western Plains Zoo Dubbo ASIAN Burma - Female - 58 (Technically Burma is still owned by the Bullen Family) Arna - Female - 52 (I believe may be older) Gigi - Female - ? AFRICANS Yum Yum - Female - ? Cuddles - Female - 36 Melbourne Zoo ASIANS Kulab - Female - 10 Num-Oi - Female - 9 Mek Kepah - Female - 34 Dokkoon - Female - 17 Bong Su - Male - 35 Baby - Female - 0 Perth Zoo ASIANS Tricia - Female - 53 Permai - Female - 21 Putra Mas - Male - 21 If you would like New Zealand included feel free to add them. I would be interested in hearing thought's on Perth's involvement in the program? There are two young elephants there, what are the plans for them?
I would be interested in hearing thought's on Perth's involvement in the program? There are two young elephants there, what are the plans for them?[/QUOTE] Thats what I have been wondering for a long time
I would have thought it better to breed from Putra Mas Before Gung as Gung will be a viable male for alot longer than Putra Mas. Are there any breeding issues with Perth's Young Cow? I also would think it better to breed from her as soon as possible, She COULD be left as a lone female in the near future.
i'm surprised you ask these questions. perth have been trying to breed their elephants for years. they have mated naturally, and the cow has been artificially inseminated (possibly more than once). the zoo is well aware that their is a need to breed her asap and the attempts go on....... as for "viable" males - i wasn't aware age was a major issue for male fertility in mammals the way it is for females. funny though that most zoos consider it so. maybe had someone read some books at taronga or used their brains they would have realised that heman was still a potential contributer to a breeding program. who knows - he might have even had a chance to sire some young. but in any event, at 21 - i wouldn't exactly worry about putra mas losing his fertility anytime soon.
I have very little knowledge of what is going on at Perth. I haven't really looked into it until now. My point with the age of Putra Mas is that Gung will be able to breed for another ten or so years (if everything goes well after Putra Mas Death not his loss of fertility) My point being take advantage of what you've got while you've got it. Heman was potentially a viable male but who would he have been bred with? At the time there were only Permai and Mek kepah as options for him.
The reason I started this thread was so that I and the forum could learn and share thoughts, If I ask, it's because I don't know.
does anyone know if the perry bros circus elephants are still performing or have been taken out of the show and are being kept at a different location?
There's only one left since December, and she was the subject of a Herald-Sun story a couple of weeks ago: Saigon, Australia's last living elephant, a relic of the past | News.com.au
The Perry Brothers circus came to the town where i live early last year. The elephants weren't participating in the circus performance but could be viewed by the public in a small, adjoining paddock to where this was taking place.
i realise that. i'm just surprised you don't know, since you have been a forum member for years, we have discussed the perth elephants countless times in these threads - and as you say, elephants are a passion for you. its not that i don't believe you that you don't know - but sometimes i feel as if we just go round in circles here. i reckon i could dig up at least six threads that mention perths breeding attempts. well, now actually if you can remember, heman and burma were moved to western plains a bout a year before the new elephants arrived. i was totally against this at the time, which may seem odd since im against elephants in urban zoos. but the reason for this was that in their old age, i believe burma and heman would have gotten more out of the introduction of new elephants and a new exhibit than they would have gotten out of a larger paddock on their own. and in addition heman might just have been able to breed, be it either through AI or naturally - who knows. but on a side note - nonetheless i was very saddened that taronga spent a fortune on what it called "an elephant penthouse" yet moved its current residents, who not only deserved to appreciate it, but who had actually been exploited, in that the zoo mislead the public and raised funds on the pretense of building these guys a new home and integrating them in with a new herd. yes, burma ended up with new stablemates - but nobody knew that would happen. it was just as likely that burma could still be living at dubbo on her lonesome. it was a reckless move and showed that the zoo was more interested in baby elephants than the long term care of its current animals.
You seem to be forgetting that both Burma and Heman - especially Heman - were not considered trustworthy by Taronga Management. You could not work in unprotected contact with Heman. When I started working as a keeper he despised me like he did the other keepers. Burma was not so bad, not by a long shot. Management wanted elephants the keepers could go in with, so Heman and Burma went up to Dubbo. They might have been able to keep and use Burma, but then Heman would have been alone. Much better to keep them together. Hix
Minyak died just before Christmas - in the week prior to the death of her former owner, Jean Perry of Sole Bros Circus. Saigon still travels with Perry Bros Circus but no longer performs. As can be seen in the newspaper pic, she is in great condition. She is completely bonded with Perry Maynard and any other home for her is not an option.
actually hix, quite the contrary, and i'm glad you brought it up. see, building an exhibit and a breeding program based on all elephants being free contact is completely naive. arn't ALL male elephants considered untrustworthy? certainly melbourne zoo has two separate management regimes for its male and female elephants and in fact i'd find it likely taronga does also. males are managed under a protective contact regime, females are not. so in actual fact taronga simply substituted one protective-contact bull elephant for another. any additional bulls will also be managed under this policy and taronga have stated that their bull facility can actually handle more than one bull. so in reality, heman and burma posed no scenarios that taronga zoo was not or should not be equipped to deal with. the only reason they were moved was exactly the reason you stated... but that doesn't necessitate what was best for heman, burma or an australian asian elephant breeding program.
i'm not making any assumptions about the general care that this animal gets with her owners or how much they care about her. but i do think that elephants generally appreciate the company of other elephants. i know that if i owned a solitary elephant, regardless of my own attachment or the elephants attachment to me, i would at least attempt to trial an integration at one of the obvious choices available. rather than make assumptions on how it may go and dismiss any options - i'd keep an open mind to it and see how it goes.
...or be the only Circus in the Country with an elephant Gotta look at this commercially as well as ethically.
phoenix, elephants are certainly sociable animals. However, that does not mean that they have to socialise with their own kind. In Saigon's case she has outlived her 4 former mates. She has seen them die and will have accepted that. She herself has only a few years of life left in the normal course of things. She still has her human mates and is well bonded with them. Why uproot an animal in that situation and attempt to forcibly integrate her with other animals just to make us feel good? And ZYBen, in any ethical animal exhibition the animal's welfare is paramount. It must come before commercial considerations. I'm not saying that commercial considerations should not be considered in animal management deliberations - but the welfare of the animal is paramount and takes precedence over the commercial factors.
i get that Steve. but for an animal that tours constantly in a truck - taking a holiday up the coast is hardly "uprooting". my point is - it wouldn't hurt..
You've been reading too many newspapers!!LOL That article, by the way, was written by an activist. Point one - Saigon doesn't "tour constantly in a truck". Nor does she live in one as the article infers. She frequently returns to the Maynard's farm in northern Victoria. Point two - "holiday up the coast"???? Do you mean Taronga? Surely not.
You're forgetting the fact that the protected contact facility was built on the the site of Heman and Burma's enclosure. In order to build it the elephants had to be moved - Dubbo was the logical choice. If Heman had remained alive, maybe he might have been brought back for breeding - who knows? But I was very glad when they went up to Dubbo and I'm disappointed Heman passed on before I got to see him enjoying himself in a large grassy paddock. Keepers up there told me he appeared happy as his personality changed and he wasn't such a beligerent grumblebum anymore. Hix
