Im interested in finding out more about Gorillas that were sent to Bristol zoo on breeding loan in the 90's. I know of 3, Nico and Samba from Longleat and Eva from Twycross. Were there any others? I wondered if anyone can tell me any more. It looks to me like it proved to be a fruitless exercise sadly.
From Longleat Nico and Samba were both sent to Bristol during one winter period. Nico was aggressive and was soon returned to Longleat after a few months. Samba stayed for longer and there may have been some mating but certainly nothing happened, and she later went back to Longleat. From Twycross, both Eva and her daughter Asante were sent to Bristol to try and get them pregnant. After a year during which she was very stressed, Eva finally relaxed enough to became pregnant by the Bristol male Daniel. She was returned to Twycross and gave birth to a premature infant(female) which died the day it was born. Sadly this move was not repeated and Eva had no more young. Asante was at Bristol for a shorter time than Eva (she arrived later) and didn't become pregnant(probably never mated). She has not yet had a baby.
Right, I knew about Eva's pregnancy such a shame the infant didn't survive always sad to loose an animal especially one so young and of such high genetic value - The father Daniel being one of the few surviving offspring of Sampson and Delilah. It must have been a stressful time, I wonder if more could have been done ? I didn't know Asante went there too. Hopefully She will breed now with Oumbie as she is Eva's only descendant. I think there is a strong chance she will. It's a shame that Samba never bred and I think it's now pretty much out of the question that Nico will breed. Thanks for the info
1. Eva's baby was premature but placed in an incubator etc and I think every effort was made to save it but sadly to no avail. What should have been done was send Eva out again on breeding loan e.g. to Howletts- not back to Bristol though as Daniel had died. But I think Molly Badham would not allow it. 2. Asante appeared too frightened of Daniel at Bristol to go anywhere near him. After he died (while they were there) both females were put with Jeremiah briefly but of course he was not a breeder anyway. They were soon recalled to Twycross as Molly was fearful after Daniel's sudden death that something bad might happen to them at Bristol (Eva was pregnant so was due to return anyway) and neither left the zoo again. 3. Samson & Delilah's only (joint) surviving relative is their grandson, 'Nasibu' now at Lisbon Zoo. He is the son of their daughter Naomi, and was born at Belfast. He does resemble Daniel rather. 4. Asante's main problem is she was handraised and at aged 23 has so far never bred (probably never mated either). But hopefully this may change with 'Oumbi' now. As you said, she's genetically important as Eva has no other descendants. 5. Regarding Longleat's Nico. It is a pity they couldn't provide him with a proven breeding female(or two) on his 'home ground' at Longleat, to try and get offspring from him before he dies. But only Howletts have enough animals to risk sending one or two - and there is the dangerous water factor to consider too-so they probably would not even consider it.
I suppose if the birth was premature the odds would be stacked against survival. I wonder if the stress of moving back induced the premature birth? Perhaps it would have been better to wait, how early was the baby? Nasibu is also one of only two surviving sons of Keke so he's from a very rare line indeed. Hope to hear of some births from him in the future. Yes it would be good if some females were introduced to Nico. It would probably be a very slow and time consuming process and time is something he doesn't really have now sadly. There is the case of Willie B at Atlanta (USA) who lived alone for many years but was introduced to females and sired offspring late in life although I think Nico's temperament is very different to his. The moat is a bit dubious - They have lost an animal to drowning although it was a while ago. I think it would be dodgey for animals who are not used to water and such and I think the Island is rather dated now. I don't hold much hope for them updating the island and for giving Nico the chance to reproduce.
1. I can't remember how soon after she was transferred back to Twycross that Eva gave birth but I think she had already settled back in, so possibly it was just bad luck the baby was born about 4 weeks early. 2. Nasibu was handraised(the only one of Naomi's babies that survived) so there's a questionmark over his ability to breed. But he did grow up in a (small) proper social group at Kolmarden in Sweden. There is even a slight possibility the baby born there(Enzo) could be fathered by him- unless they have now proved it isn't by DNA testing. At Lisbon he has 3 females, one or two of which are certainly potential breeders, but I've heard of no pregnancy yet. 3. I don't hold any hope on both counts! Nico did live for very many years with Samba so he isn't quite in the same category as 'Willie B' and despite his nature I think quite possible that given one or two normal, younger females he would mate. The factors working against him are the logistics of the 'island' he lives on, the accomodation generally and lack of female availability (or rather anywhere being prepared to send them any).
Such a shame and none of Daniel's offspring survive today. It seems strange that out of all Daniel's offspring Jeremiah lived longest. There is a half brother of Daniel's called Reuben who was sent to Tokyo I wonder what has become of him? He was the only offspring of Susie who originally came from Belle Vue I think. I can't find any info on him. I hope that Nasibu does breed I think one of the females he is currently with is wildborn with no offspring - yet and she has had a stillbirth before. It would be fantastic if some babies happened. I've heard of hand raised Gorillas being shown videos of other Gorillas mating as it is something that seems to be learnt by observation rather than totally instinctive. However plenty of hand raised Gorillas have bred without so Im not sure about that. Yes the cases of Willie B and Nico are a little different but it does show that an older male can breed although Nico is approaching 50 now. Willie B first bred aged 36 and continued to breed until his death at the age of 42. I don't know if there is a precedent for an individual of his age becoming a breeding male. If only there was a way of making the Island a little larger and safer then maybe someone - Howletts or Port Lympne would be a little more willing to give it a chance. I think moving him is out of the question because it didn't work when he went to Bristol and I think at his age the stress would severely compromise his health.
Various suggestions have been made why Daniel's offspring all died- one explanation pushed by the Zoo at the time was that he carried a 'lethal' gene from his mother Delilah. However many other baby Gorillas were born at Bristol in that era to other mothers apart from Delilah, and they nearly all died too, so such a theory would not explain that. I think it was all just bad management/poor diet etc somehow. Also Jeremiah would have inherited the gene x2 being inbred-Danielx Delilah, yet he lived the longest. He was very unfit though- always had colds and when he moved to London it was discovered he was nearly blind and had webbed toes. Susie's son Reuben/Musashi was still alive in Japan a year or so ago, but he seems to be a classic non-breeder who was kept alone for many years, although he has got some(shared?) access to females now. Like the others, Susie also had several miscarriages and stillbirths at Bristol, and also one female baby 'Leah' who died after a few months. (5 in total) I think Nasibu, who looks fit and healthy, has the best chance of breeding with the youngest Lisbon female 'Anguka' who came from the social group at Taronga Park. I always think if one partner is mother-raised(which Anguka was) there's a better chance of breeding. I'm afraid I think showing Gorillas videos of mating etc would have absolutely no effect whatsoever, despite it being a popular idea. As I mentioned above, there is also some scope for doubt about the parentage of the Kolmarden bay 'Enzo' (and another born just after Nasibu left there)- unless they DNA test to establish for certain they were fathered by their older male 'Efata' With Longleat's 'Nico' being a wildcaught male with no offspring, I am surprised no more attempts have been made to breed from him, but the logistics do work against any loans/additions so I think unfortnately its a no hope situation.
Interesting about the 'Lethal' gene but Im not sure about that. I'd be inclined to agree that it was down to how they were kept. Thankfully Bristol seems to have improved so much since those days now having one of the more successful breeding groups in the U.K. I hear that Ruben is still alive but still not sure how he is kept. I was suspicious of the videos idea but it has apparently been used. I am hopeful that we will see some offspring sired by Nasibu if he has not already,I suppose they will do DNA tests to be sure? Yes Im surprised that the loan to Bristol was the only real attempt that I know of to breed from Nico. Sadly I think you're right, he will have no offspring now.
This thread is really interesting - could you point me in the right direction for more information about willie b, I'm familiar with nico's story but I've never heard of him
Go to Gorilla Haven Home Page - which is the main source of gorilla info on the web. Then go to the Photo Gallery and the Super Silverbacks page and follow the link. Enjoy! Alan
Thank you - what a great site. What a fascinating history for willie b, I'm glad he finally found a group and have family, and be such a great silverbacks. You do realise now that I will have to read the whole website now tho, don't you?
Yes of course. When you have memorised Jim Davis's studbook, Pertinax can set you a short exam to check that you've been paying proper attention Alan
Jim Davis' Studbook isn't completely accurate but it is a brilliant document and I know it must have been a huge task putting it together, let alone keeping it up to date! I just found out that Ruben is kept alone. I love Willie B's story, I wish It could happen to more solitary male Gorillas although some do prefer not to be part of a group.
I was in contact wih someone in Japan a year or so back who said Reuben(they call him Musashi in Japan) had some contact with females nowadays. But I'm sure he falls into the 'its far too late' category like so many other males that have lived solitary lives for very many years and then been given female company- but excepting 'Willie B' of course. Some others have been integrated into social groups with varying success, but unlike WillieB they don't normally become successful breeding males like he did.
Apparently most of the 24 Gorillas in 10 Japanese zoos are kept alone or 'routinely separated' So I've heard. Yes for example Ivan at the very same zoo Willie B lived. Even though he proved to have a social disposition he has sadly so far failed to reproduce, to my knowledge. What about Rigo at Melbourne ? I don't know what he is like with the females he was put with after many years of being alone. And mentioning Rigo that brings up the subject of artificial insemination. I don't know where I stand on that, it has happened - Rigo being the Father of the first Gorilla to be born using AI. I don't know any details but I had heard it is not an easy process with Gorillas.
Japanese zoos are mostly municipally owned and funded. Conservation breeding is hence fraught with commercial issues sadly. This sometimes precludes desired transfers and imports. This has certainly in the past beset the JAZGA gorilla breeding programme. At the moment, I know only of the Tokyo Zoos having set up a successful and socially apt breeding group. They have just had a baby born! Others zoos mainly own elderly gorillas with no hope of breeding anymore. The JAZGA Gorilla breeding programme is tasked with a change over. Slowly, slowly ... things are looking for the better though, but I admit they have a long way to go.
I believe there has been a move to improve the situation for some of the singleton Gorillas in various Japanese zoos. I believe Reuben/Musashi was a benefactor from this and has been given at least some contact with females, but he certainly hasn't bred as far as I know. Ivan proved to be a rather withdrawn and socially inept(unsurprisingly) male but he did finally mate with an experienced breeding female but there was no happy outcome as with Willie B and he has since died. Rigo has not shown a lot of interest in the Melbourne females either. They still seem to hope he will breed with the youngest one(Jumatano) who was born there- but I remain doubtful. He has been with them a couple of years now and normally mating activity starts a lot sooner than that(often soon after the first introductions) if its going to happen. The longer there's no mating, the less likely it will happen at all. AI is still very difficult with Gorillas. Though Melbourne achieved it with Rigo & Yuska it has not seen a major breakthrough ever since- which is a pity as it would be extremely useful in this species to get desocialised animals breeding.
Yes I've learnt that there are efforts going on to improve Gorilla husbandry generally in Japanese zoos. Defiantly a good thing. I had thought that Ivan was fairly normal considering his background however Im not surprised to hear that he was not. Sad though and even sadder to hear that he has passed away. I can't find out much on Gorilla AI, information on the subject seems to be quite sparse. Going back to the start I wonder if there are any photographs taken at Bristol at the time of the breeding loan? I don't know exact dates so there may be some in the gallery already.
