Taronga Zoo Great Southern Oceans

Fair enough.

 

can you explain this a little further? i'd be keen to hear your opinion. since you say that australasian eared seal species are just as easily trained, why is it that you feel californian sea lions offer the public additional educational opportunities? why is it important to keep them?

is it just the look of them? their character? is their something radically different about them when compared to our southern hemispherian seals?

 

Yes this is supposed to be Great SOUTHERN Oceans.

If we're going to have Californian sea lions, why not throw in a couple of polar bears too.
(Oops - politically incorrect - naughty Ara!)

 

Number 1 i don't think we should display them more than our native eared seals and we don't, what also you have to remember is that the vast majority of marine mammal collections of australiasian species are made up of stranded seals, not all, but most. This means that at times there may be a low number of captive australian seals. Because of this cali's are good because there is such a good captive stock of them.
in terms of education they are good because if we show a wide variety of marine mammals, people can compare and contrast. The thing that alot of people think works is just saying to the public theres species that need saving, however if you don't have something there people can see the vast majority will get nothing out of experience.
I also think that the attitude that is starting to develop, that being that our region should stop displaying exotics to make room for more natives, i think is quite a bad way to be heading, not because i don't believe australian wildlife is important to display, but there is the danger that our zoo's will become wildlife snobs, which is negative for two reasons.
Number 1 It could isolate our zoo's from others across the world, because lets face it australian species are some of the least represented species in over seas zoos. Also the people of this country also deserve the chance of seeing exotic species, seeing an species in real life is ten times more effective at getting people to want to save that species, than seeing it on tv.

 

hmmmmm.... i'd agree except for the fact that californian sea lions look pretty bloody similar to other eared seal species to me. so i think the value of comparison in this case is being somewhat overstated.

also, whilst i do agree that their is a ready supply of californian seal lions in zoos around the world to "fill-in" any gaps left by the availability of rescued australasian animals, i wonder why zoos wouldn't just choose to breed their native seals for a change instead. especially since you just mentioned a lack of available "space" for such super-rare species as leopard seals.

might have to agree to disagree on this one but it all seems pretty nonsensical to me.

 

If your gonna start that line of argument you could belt of a whole list of animals that look similar, and look i have to completly disagree with you, you look at a new zealand fur seal next to an australian sea lion then a californian sea lion they all look different. In terms of just breeding more, it's a lil bit easier said than done, we can't just breed more as doing that when there is such limited numbers in capitvity is just asking for trouble in terms of inbreeding an so on. Also i mean you may not see the need to have them but you also have to remember that there are those out there who love californian sea lion, and when they aren't placing a drain on our resources i don't see a problem with having them.

 

very very true

 

i know they look a bit different, but but do we really need THAT many comparisons. certainly with 4 native seals to choose, 2 of which are endangered or rare (thats considering the leopard seal as a native), is that one extra exotic worth even the cost of imports and space simply for a another slight variation in looks?

muah ha!.... a) firstly there are australian sea lions in captivity in australia than there are bongos, pygmy hippo or even breedable elephants for that matter. i hardly think the longer-term issue of inbreeding is something thats going to be of such concern that you wouldn't even begin.. afterall, just a moment before you mentioned the zoos desire to eventually breed the leopards seals should more space come up. they have a smaller founder population than the fur seals and a less likelihood of "washing up" and other species still, such as bongo are freely inbred to maintain stocks...

b) unlike the californian species, australian sea lions are endangered, indeed one of the most endangered, with much more relevant and practical conservation opportunities, being native.

ah hah! - yes it seems there are people who love californian sea lions, and no doubt those such as yourself that look after them for a living are atop of that list. see, essentially i think that fact alone forms the foundation for your argument to maintain them. the other reasons are really a little illogical. feeding them, housing them, all of it is an inconvenience, albeit a slight one if their are endangered native species that are not being bred due to lack of space.

 

Taronga's two male Californian Sea Lions are two of a handful of animals in this region. As far as I am aware they are only held at Taronga, Seaworld, Auckland Zoo and maybe Sydney Aquarium???
Andi and Michi were imported at a time when Taronga's seal show was about to retire a few veteran performers. I guess, rather than have to wait for a suitable seal to become stranded or to breed one, then rehabilitate and train it the zoo decided it would be more cost-effective and practical to import two new seals.
That said, I would like to see, at some point, a Leopard Seal breeding program established amongst two or more of the 8 member institutions currently holding or planning to hold seals in Australia, so that a base line of reproductive information can be established for this species.

 

Ok that may be true, but we can bring in more bongos, pygmy hippos and elephants in from overseas if needed, they are all on the foundations of international efforts. There are NO australian sea lions outside of australia in captivity. Look all i can say is i don't actually see the big issue with keeping them, the comments that the people who work with these species are the people who want them to stay the most i think is a little bit of a shallow comment to make. Look when you look at the stats ok, 8 institutions keep australiasian species, 3 keep cali's just look at the stats and you'll see they aren't a burden on our resources at all.

 

Taronga has only one now, andi got sent to sea world, but yes you are right, in that only taronga, sea world and Auckland hold them, sydney aq doesn't. I think the idea that the zoo looked at this as a practical buisness venture is not good, because it was not the case, the species is quite an amazing species to view and learn about and so good to have in a collection. Look in terms of the leopard seals, the zoo is not keeping them and planning on breeding them to keep the species in zoos, our 3 are strandings that could not be returned to the wild. This species would be better off in the wild, being a seal keeper and trainer alot of people are suprised when i say i would prefere to not have them in captivity. However i am happy to help give a good quality of life to the seals we have who are all strandings. Seals are not good to have as a buisness venture for two reasons, number 1 people don't come to our zoo for seals, you can run a zoo without them. Number 2 if anything they can use more money than earn't just because of thier dietry needs, we have 54 animals on our division, one of the smallest in the whole zoo yet we have the largest food bill.

 

zooworker, as a zoo employee of fifteen years i thought you'd be aware that we cannot import more bongo or pygmy hippo into this country. sorry to shoot holes through your argument, but it would actually be more realistic to expect a genetically viable population of australian sealions or leopard seal in this country than one for pygmy hippo or bongo.

 

My 2 cent's worth:-

Taronga has always had a fairly strong maritime theme and has always had Australia's best representation of seals and sealions. When I think "Taronga" I think of seals; I don't think koalas or kangaroos. Even before the establishment of the seal show, several generations of Sydney people grew up with the tradition of watching the seals being fed.(Look at old photos of Taronga's seal pool at feeding time and people are gathered around it three deep.)

We Sydney people love our seals. I can imagine Adelaide and Melbourne zoos without their pinnipeds, but not Taronga.

Two questions:-
1. Why no plans to attempt to breed Sea leopards?
2. What's going to happen with the old (now empty and drained)seal pool?

 

ha ha! this is jest getting better and better!!!

zooboy - thankyou once again for making zero sense. even the few legible comments you did make, were irrelevant.

zooworker - you state that people didn't come to the zoo to see leopard seals and that they are not a good "business venture" but you want us to believe they do come to see californian sea lions and that they are a good venture? i think you'll find your alone on that one.

you also state that californian sea lions don't chew up resources, yet you then go on to say how high the food bill is for your section. another meaningless comment.

just in case you missed this at the beginning, (since you seemed to have missed that your apparent employer can't import artiodactyls) i haven't once attacked taronga or any other zoos decision to import californian sea lions, i only viewed my opinion that they should be phased-out in favour of endangered native species. thus, your not defending the right to keep them currently, but the right to keep them permanently.

now if you have a more valid reason why australasian zoos should continue to breed, maintain and import an exotic, non-threatened seal species when there is a lack of
space for a critically endangered native one, then please, have a think about it and articulate that without contradicting yourself,

however if all you got is "because you love them", then spare us the wasted time reading your responses.... please.

 

Patrick, you are actually being a real jerk number 1. Like seriously, you love making youself think you no so much about zoo's and the way they work just because you no the region guidelines off by heart and in the process trying to be little many many people. In response to the hippo and bongo point i apologise i don't no the guidelines off by heart, the fact that i've never worked with those animals would usually suggest i don't know the finer details of the laws. You'll find the majority of zookeepers only know what is relivant to thier division. In response to the buisness venture point i brought up that was to do with a very different comment not made by you so it is not relivent, also if you knew anything about seals and sea lions or zoo's you would no that to house leopard seals a facility can't just use what they have they have to upgrade and change thier facilities as leopard seals are not just your average seal, california sea lions are very easy to slot into exsisting facilitites as they don't need major overhalls to facilities. I don't think there an issue at all, thats what i'm saying, and seeing as your obviously a melbourne zoo person, it shouldn't really effect you because you don't keep them.

 

Then why has there been a leopard seal in the old pools above the seal theatre for the last few years? What changes where made to that pool?

 

This is a passionate one...

In my opinion it seems to depend almost entirely on these variables:
- Californians take up the space which could be used for Australians but would this space allow for a breeding programme..? Would there be empty pools if not enough washed up..?
- Having both Australian and Californian allows zoo visitors to see greater biodiversity, they differ slightly, are these minutae a better teacher than seeing the difference between an elephant and dolphin and how they adapt to their respective enviroments..? Could argue either way on this one

 

no we didn't make changes to those pools, we spent 54 million dollars on an entire new preciinct, most people would call that an overhaul.

 

Leopard seals have been in the collection as far back as 20 years. I have an old guide book from 1988 with a leopard seal at Taronga. So the overhaul took 20 years?
You say that a facility can't just use what they have they have to upgrade but, then you say you didn't need to upgrade the old pools for leopard seals. What is different in the new pool to the old pool?

 

well i may be a jerk, zooworker but at least i know how to articulate myself.

"not just your average seal"?... ha ha! is that the best description you can give? your supposed to be a seal keeper and all you can say is "not just your average seal"?.......

but.... but.... as boof so very rightly pointed out. you did keep a leopard seal in there for years. so obviously it was adequate enough.

i know, and considering your the seal keeper you'd think it was you who'd be memorising this stuff.....

i mean %$#@! it seems i'm more interested in your apparent job than you are!

wanna knows something zooworker....

*whispers*

some of us here don't think you really work at the zoo.