I was wondering about some things ,when reading through the site. I've seen some pretty strong opinions already. To me has risen the question if any of you oppose to the holding of certain species in zoos (I'm not talking about circusses and such ,those to me are in no case acceptable). If so ,I think it'd be a good idea to tell us to the keeping of which species you oppose. I personally am not very strongly opposed to most species, but I must tell I'm not a big fan of the popular species. I'm most strongly opposed to dolphins and orcas - which I am even very strongly against ; I'm opposed to dolfinaria and my belief is they should dissapear, these animals no longer kept in zoos. There's been enough fuss about it , I don't need to tell you all. I'm also opposed to apes. I've never actually liked these animals - neither have they ever actually gained my interest for even minutes. Maybe it's the similarity with humans, I do not know. I've seen some good exhibits ,but most are inadequate. Many groups are also inadequate. I just don't feel right about their keeping. I'm more or less also opposed to elephants, considering the fact they are highly intelligent and very demanding animals (in space, care and more) ; plus, they often show abnormal and stereotypical behaviour (I've seen it many times in many zoos). Also ,the breeding does not seem to be working out very well. I'm not sure, but for now I do not feel oké about elephant keeping. I have the same feeling for rhinos. Bears are an other one. I haven't seen much good exhibits so far. A few indeed, but even in those, I've seen stereotypical behaviour. I'm also pretty irritated by the fact some zoos still keep them in groups, although they are not social animals. I'm not sure if a really adequate ,sufficient exhibit for them can actually be built. I've seen very good tries ,but I'm not sure. I feel the same for big cats and wolfs. Birds of prey is the last category. They are very often inadequately housed ; I also oppose to the use in shows (after having had an accident - a vulture unexpectedly landing pretty much on me- during a show) ; they say it's educational, but I haven't seen much good shows so far. The birds are often chained and even starved before these. And it to me doesn't feel right to see eagles in cages.
I Agree with you on Dophins, Orcas & Eagles. I Believe Bears, Apes & Elephnats can be kept in good conditions. Same goes for birds of prey if given enough room though some zoos are just horrible in keeping them on chains or in extremly small cages
@Xerxes: there are a lot of different species that you are opposed to! But you mention a number of mammals that traditionally struggle in captivity, and I'd have to say that elephants are almost always poorly showcased in any collection. And I'm also sick and tired of walking past horrrible bear pits that continue to show up in zoos.
I have not said I'm truelly against the keeping of all these species. Not at all. Some are wonderfull animals, that I'd rather not see dissapear. Only dolphins,orcas and apes I'm actually very much opposed too, as well as elephants. The first three in my opinion should be phased out on short term. Elephants are indeed often poorly showcased. I've though seen a few very good exhibits though. Considering the bear pits : I know the thing. They have dissapeared in many places in western europe ,but still exists. I've seen some oke or pretty good bear exhibits ; some were built instead of old bear pits. I've even seen a few using the principles of the old bear pits (moat,etc) ,but they were much bigger, and no concrete. Likewise , they are more acceptable. Sadly ,these terrible pits still exist. I hope they will dissapear. By the way, I still have difficulties with many of even the very best exhibits for bears and some other animals.
Keeping birds of prey myself I don't have a problem with them in zoos, but then I am biased. Seems a little strange that you are ok with elephants being kept at zoos, where they have to live in enclosures, yet eagles which can be trained and flown free, exercised properly and at least occasionally have freedom you don't agree with. Not sure what falconry is like where you are but we certainly never 'chain' any of the raptors up. If you mean the tethering of the birds with specially designed equipment then that’s a different thing. Some species benefit from being tethered sometimes. For example many falcon species are quite highly strung, if they were trained to fly and kept loose in an aviary they would thrash around and injure their selves. If tethered the falcon can be trained to remain calm and sit (as it would in the wild) until the time came for it to exercise. The alternative is to keep the falcon fat and leave it in an aviary to sit and look pretty. So the option is, tethered sometimes and given the opportunity to fly freely or sit in an aviary, loose but with no reason to fly any where, even if the aviary is huge. I don't like to see raptors tethered all the time, and not keen on owls being tethered for long periods of time at zoos. If you have never found a flying display educating then I would guess you have never seen a good one. I do agree with you on the orcas and dolphins to an extent. Having said that, if they are trained and kept busy then that has to be better than just floating about in a pool. I am not really opposed to any species being kept properly but the thing I am most opposed to, and again its mainly birds of prey, is wild disabled raptors being kept in aviaries and displayed to the public. Never seen this done at a ‘proper’ zoo but some smaller places does it. These are just my opinions.
Look, I have never said I agree to the keeping of elephants. Actually, I do not, or only to a low extent. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the keeping of elephants. I may have been a little strong on raptors though. I haven't said I'm opposed to the training and free flying; I'm not. I like to see these birds flying free and getting their exercise. The only thing disturbing me, is used methods, and often seeing these birds in inadequate housing. Birds are often chained, or as you like to call it, tethered as call it. I was talking about exactly that. This picture is not a good example ,maybe, but indicated what I was reacting against. I understand these birds are being used for hunting (which is only their natural behaviour, by the way). It's only an example. I do not react against some using these wonderful birds for hunting. I was only saying I do not like seeing these birds in terribly small, horribly inadequate cages ,often even without a higher place or branch to sit on (I've seen it). The chaining disturbs me. I've seen tethered birds without shelter from the sun, without drinking water ,and more. This is unacceptable in my opinion. I understand some animals that are trained cannot stay calm when let loose in an aviary. But it to me does not feel right to see the birds chained up. It leaves me with a very uneasy feeling ; some have used it against falconry and zoos a lot. Here at least, it is also against the animal welfare laws to do so. I understand you consider the tethering to be a valid method for these birds. But I cannot except it, even knowing the reasons. I've seen many huge ,large and small aviaries. I have indeed noticed the birds are often fat and inactive. Now birds of prey usually sit still for long time (even in nature) looking out, but still. I also noticed birds used in shows, are often not. I know why you are seeing what you said, and I understand. I do consider free flying an option, but tethering should be kept to a minimum, as I cannot imagine but the animal not feeling well being chained. Look, I've seen many flying displays. Would be very surprising not having seen a single good one,wouldn't it ? I have seen some in zoos and parks that are described to be high quality. I'm just not keen on the keeping of raptors. Maybe it's because I already as a child, saw these birds in sad cages, right from the start. It's only the last few years that I've seen a few good housings. I may have told before, but I will say again WHY exactly I'm no longer (note ,no longer, I loved them before) keen on flying displays. It's not just the chaining up and the way some handle the birds, plus the hear-says of birds being starved or other way abused. It's something that happened during a show. Look ,they were using a young I believe lappet-faced vulture. This animal was released ; I was sitting a bit in front of a wooden wall lining the show area. The animal was supposed to land on the wall ,but obviously miscalculated and instead went all the way down over the public. It landed right besides me ; I remember feeling the tips of the wing in neck. Of course, I had not expected this, and I ws kinda scared. Note that it was the second time I was in that particular zoo ; the first time a similar thing happened to other people. They also have birds sit down on people's heads (with hats, but still). After this event, I've never been keen on flying displays again. I do have seen somle educative ones. But to me, education is more than just letting a few birds loose and maybe giving a little talk. I'm not sure if the given information does actually penetrate into the minds of the public (to mine it does, but I'm not the most common type of visitor). I have seen good and educative flying displays, but I do not like them anymore. I'm not speaking out against falconry; I'm just saying I cannot accept some things. It's maybe just emotion ; I get very double feelings when seeing birds chained up or in horrible cages. Considering the dolphins : I'm not keen at all on shows with animals. I find the comparision with the circus - which I'm very much against - all to obvious. Plus ,even if kept somewhat good, my thought is dolphins and orcas can not be kept properly. I've read enough reports on it, I've seen some things my self. I do not believe dolphins and orcas can possibly be kept adequately. These are my beliefs. I respect yours, but I beg to differ.
I'm opposed to the way that some zoos keep some species; but even if a zoo keeps a species relatively poorly, we should expect the zoo to improve things, perhaps by passing the animals to a better home, rather than making sweeping statements about the species being unsuitable for keeping in captivity. I believe that most species of animal can be kept successfully in captivity if enough time and trouble and money is spent. Of course they may not make very good displays, so they may not be suitable for zoos. In my opinion, there are a few groups of species that should not be kept at all with current techniques and technology; either because they need so much space or they have such specialised requirements or they are so sensitive. I'm sure my list is not complete, but I would include whales, dolphins and porpoises some of the insectivorous mammals, eg desmans swifts swallows and martins (perhaps some species might be suitable) albatrosses, shearwaters, frigate birds and possibly other large seabirds Alan
Off course you are entitled to differ. I completely understand your opinion , many people have your opinion on tethering raptors but until you are involved in it I can see why it would be hard to see it from another point of view. Birds should NEVER be tethered without shelter or water that is cruel. I can see why you would not be keen on displays having had a bad experience. We will have to agree to disagree on the tethering of raptors (it does not involve chains so won’t use that term). Since falconry began some 2000 years ago people have disagreed on what is acceptable. The zoo regs in England mean birds are not allowed to be tethered all year, must be flown a certain amount of times and must have shelter and water at all times. I also agree that throughout the world raptors are housed in inadequate enclosures, but the same can be said for any species kept. I do not like circuses myself and am not overly keen on the ‘tricks’ that some animals are expected to do. However if they are trained correctly and happy to do it then at least it gives them something to do. Sometimes my birds do not feel like flying, that’s their choice but the least I can do is give them the opportunity. I am in the unfortunate passion of dealing with raptors which have not been housed correctly. To be fair the rescues are from private keepers and not zoos. I have also seen the injuries caused by free lofting birds which should have been tethered. I can a sure you (although only with my own) that the equipment used is comfortable and certainly in no way harms the birds. If they were not contented they would not sit on their perches but bate (jump) constantly. The falcons you show are obviously in excellent condition and the equipment is pretty much similar to what we use (note no chains). However they should have shelter. I do not wish to argue, its interesting to hear other peoples opinions. I doubt anywhere in the world can house Orcas or Dolphins the way they ideally need, it’s a shame that no one has tried them in vast pools, perhaps its simply not do able. I cannot really comment as have never even seen, let alone cared for such things. Any way, please don’t be offended, simply voicing my thoughts. On another note, being nosy, where was the pic taken?
I understand your opinion. It's an interesting and difficult debate. Btw ,about the pic. I should've added a source, I just wanted to illustrate what I was talking about and searched a pic on google using 'falconry' as criterium. It's not a shot I made. Seeing the surroundings ,I think it's in Arabian world somewhere. Rich Arabians have used raptors for hunting since a very long time.
I don't oppose housing any animals if conditions are good. Bottlenose dolphins are were well housed in Hardewijk, Holland. They have large lake (perhaps it's natural pond, anyway bottom is sandy) and there is a group of over ten animals. Bears are now well housed in many zoos. Rhenen, Bern, small nature park near Zurich all have fenced chunks of forest for brown bears. Bears behave naturally and fencing cost relatively little (as long as zoo grounds have space). Birds of prey thrive in captivity. Most peregrine falcons in Central Europe and all California Condors descend from birds raised in captivity using experience of falconers. California condor subject I don't want to touch - idiots chaining themselves to zoo gates demanding that condors die with dignity. Xerxes - are these falcons in a zoo? If they are falconer falcons from Middle East, keeping birds in that region is put to shame by zoos and falconers in Europe. Perhaps some people seen only old and outdated zoos - then visit more.
There are several species I'm opposed to having in zoos, which I can easily divide in two groups: 1. Parasites (ecto-/endo) 2. Vermins (cockroaches, pharao ants, brown rats etc.) About the other animals mentioned above: it's very easy to have an opinion solely based on personal emotions. However, it's usually way more difficult to back up this opposition with rational, verifiable and precise arguments and examples. In fact, this is very true in this example. Just saying "I'm opposed to keeping animal x in a zoo" without comprehensible, smart argumentation and only thumbing on respecting one another's opinion won't do. In the case of the two groups mentioned above, the reasons for being opposed to having them in a zoo should be clear to everyone ...
Are they aware that it was humans who nearly wiped them off the face of the planet in the first place and that it wasn't natural selection? Somehow, I don't see poaching, habitat destruction or lead poisoning as "dieing with dignity"... Anywho back on topic, the only types of animal I oppose the keeping of, are the cetaceans, just because I don't believe any zoo can keep them in suitable exhibits, whereas with enough resources; elephants, apes and bears can be kept quite content.
Look ,please... you could be a bit more respectfull ,I think. I find the way you are speaking rather rude. My purpose was not to debate. I have heard rational and verifiable arguementation on at least some of these species. I'm not giving these, as I did not consider it usefull. I'm not wanting to do so either. It would lead us, I think ,to far. It could be an endless debate between pro's and contra's. The rest is from personal experience, and yes, some emotion, which I know won't do. It's not all emotion. Part is based on seen examples and argumentation. I'd say I have maybe expressed my self to strongly on species. But indeed, many of what I've seen for certain species is inadequate. I've seen many good zoos; so it's not just that. I'm not wanting to debate about it, as I don't think the debate is adding anything ; plus I'm not ready to do and I do not have the time. I could give some argumentation, but I'm not sure if I can do so, if based on experience (and not emotion). I could back up my opinion, which has got it's basis, but I'm not going to do so when spoken to in this way.
Not being funny, but didn't you start this thread? If you didn't want others opinion and discussion, or don't have time for it (and you seem to have invested a fair amount of time in lengthy replies so far) then why did you start it?? Such a subject was bound to be contraversial and stimulate some strong opinions...... Please don't take others writing style personally, its all part of the fun, no one is out to insult anyone on a personal level. Some people make their respect for others opinions very clear in their replies while for others it is implicit in the fact that they have replied at all... Enjoy the forum, thats what its about!
There's a border between expression and being brutal and rude in my opinion. This was intended to be personal, in my opinion. Look, saying I do not want other's opinions and discussions, is over the top. I have started this thread to hear more opinions. I have not started it to start endless debates ; to my believe ,even logical arguementation in this case will not do. At least in my case, it will not. I'm not a good debater. There are things I can debate, but I know I cannot on this one. Then why did I start this ? To hear opinions. PS : I do NOT intent to start a fight or to be rude. I mean no harm. I'm not intending to let things go wrong on my second day here; I'm not sure what I ought to do... maybe I've gone a bit far indeed.
@Xerxes: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you say in your first post that you are against keeping apes in zoos, because you can't find an interest in them, and because they are to "human". Why should that be a reason not to keep them? I may have misunderstood what you meant though, so could you please explain?
The non-interest is not actually a reason ; I was only seeing - I should have been clearer, maybe - that I indeed don't mind them much and sometimes find them a waste of space. Of course, it's not a reason for them not to be kept. About them being human. They're definately highly intelligent and close relatives to us; I've seen much abnormal social and other behaviour in different ape species. I've seen some very good groups and behaviours and exhibits too, but still. But the fact they are so close to us, makes me feel uncomfortable about seeing them in a zoo. Their behaviour is highly complex and very interesting, but still I have a double feeling over seeing them in captivity. My major problem is these apes need massive spaces and a massive amount of enrichment in order to keep them somewhat good. I have by the years grown into doubt it's actually possible to keep them adequatly. Maybe it's emotion more then reason, or personal negative experience more than serious thinking. Is this enough ?
just read your first post Xerxes. regarding the great apes you say that you have hardly watched a group for more than a few minutes. is this enough time to guage the adequacy of the enclosure and level of social cohesion within the group? in my opinion great apes are ideal candidates for captivity, given the right conditions. their status in the wild underpins the importance of what are, for all 4 species highly succesful international programs. im also all for rhinos being in captivity. here in Australian zoos we have 3 species, and the standards of the exhibits for all 3 species are exceptional across the region. once again, global breeding programs are becoming more and more succesful with the rhino species and rhinos as a whole benefit from insurance programs. they are also a group of animals which could be reintroduced from zoo breeding programs in the future or at least benifit immensely from the assisted reproduction work zoos are conducting. when it comes to elephants i think there is ALOT of room for optimism. in North America the African Elephant SSP is reaching its targets and despite the setbacks the Asian Elephant program is improving. A vigoruos roll out of enclosure redevlopments, constantly revised husbandary and other strategy's including retirement sanctuaries should see the SSP in that region executed sustainably long term. again, I have no problem with elephants being kept 'well' by zoos. in Europe much has been made of recent Asian Elephant births. German, Dutch, UK and Irish zoos all experiencing success of late. these represent big and quick steps towards a better future for this species. considering just a few years ago the IZN reported this species risked zoo extinction its a positive reversal. hopefully soon the Australasian zoo community will add to the international network of zoos keeping elephants well and breeding them. when it comes to whales and dolphins in captivity my opinions are a little mixed. in the case of Sea World on the Gold Coast, Australia, where third generation calves are being born, i think keeping dolphins is ok. but in general marine parks, particularly those close to the coastline should do more to provide these animals with better environemnts, ie mesh sided exhibits and sea walls jutting out to create enclosures within the sea. in Western Australia such a facility was in place for dolphins at an aquarium called AQWA and i cant help but feel it was a good idea. bears................there is plenty of scope for improvement with bears but as a whole this is one group of animals which pretty much need zoo help. i have never seen a bear pit, and imagine it wouldnt be too good, but I must say that here in Australia most of the zoo bear exhibits are of a good standard. there have been problems with stereotypic behaviours in the Sun Bears at some zoos but this is probably a reflection of their 'rescue origins' more than any fault in enclosure design. Polar Shores in Queensland, the Sun Bear exhibit at Perth and Kodiak Bear Canyon of Taronga Zoo are all good exhibits. in Europe good bear exhibit include Rome Zoo and Emmen. there are probably many more. the situation where bears are kept socially seems to afflict brown bears particularly. I cant help but think this is a reflection of the early stages of the EEP/ management strategy for this species combined with their longeivity and of course the cost to upgrade bear exhibits. perhaps in the future these issues will be ironed out. finally, birds of prey. i cannot see a problem with birds of prey in captivity. in some cases zoo breeding programs have, as pointed out, saved species. having worked for a week behind the scenes in Sydney with the bird department which conducts the presentations I can tell you that there at least the raptors are not tethered and instead live off show in very large aviaires. they are trained by positive reinforcement, their weight monitored twice a day. they are well cared for, breed well and do well. so overall i do disagree with your list. sorry, but i just think that as Western zoos improve exhibits, link CBP with in-situ conservation strategies etc these species have a place in GOOD zoos.
I said I rarely watch great apes for a long time. I usually do not have the time when at the zoo ; usually these exhibits are also overcrowded, and if I hate one thing, it's busy and overcrowded viewing areas. On topic ; I usually pay more attention to the exhibits then to the apes themselves. I may have so far been a bit neglectant about them, that's true. I have seen enough exhibits for them and I believe I have seen some good ones and some bad ones. I spent enough time to judge these. Considering the groups : I've clearly seen very unusual behaviour, including getting into contact with visitors and such. That's my biggest problem : the simplicity of them getting into close contact. Many zoos happily forbid this contact or prevent it from happening. I've also read a few ethological studies about primates in capitvity and the wild. This convinces me their social behaviour and intelligence might be to complex and elevated to provide them a suitable environment. I'm aware of the state of primates in the wild ; which might underline the need for captive breeding, however I believe always in-situ research and protection is needed in the first place. Breeding for all for is usually quite easily done (as in ,in some here they've had to give their apes birth control) ; maybe captive breeding is an option. I was gesturing to the fact that many groups may have unnatural numbers or gender-ratio's. Not a problem an sich, but it may become. I was gesturing more to the lack of space ,climbing structures and enrichment in many exhibits I've seen. Look, I'm - besides cetaceans - not very much really against the keeping of certain species. I'm only tired of seeing these species being kept in environments that are not suitable. I understand the argument of the breeding programs, but their use is often debated, sadly. I do believe in the use of breeding programs. I've seen high standard exhibits as well for rhinos. I understand the need of breeding ; maybe I choose a wrong title. Some of these species I am against, others I have some troubles or second thoughts with. But my greatest complaint is many still do not understand everything about keeping them. It disturbs me often stables are far too small; many zoos that have for example the indian - solitary - species do not have acceptable seperation pens or multiple exhibits. Also, often the solitary ones are kept together. I've only seen the white rhino besides that; I believe this species is acceptable and doing pretty well. Considering rhinos, I think they're a species that can be continued to be kept; just a few major changes are needed. I think there is some room for optimism when it comes to elephants, but my main thought is that a lot of change and thinkin is necessary. Vigorous rethinking of exhibiting ,care and breeding are very much necessary, as well as more studies on actually what elephants need in captivity and wether they are suitable is needed. It comes to be that I remember how dangerous they are. Look, in fact protected handling or hands-on is needed in elephants to provide health monitoring and care. This is also a very dangerous job; keepers are still getting killed by elephants on an all to regular basis. I'm not sure, but I think that if a species is a danger to keepers, some serious considering is needed. I'm not saying they cannot be kept well. I've seen a few pretty good enclosure, e.g. for african elephant in Hilvarenbeek and Wuppertal and for asian elephant a huge and very well made enclosure at Emmen. My great complaints are the inner housing (which is necessary in many areas) and the lack of space in almost any elephant exhibit. I'm rather unsure whether it's possible for many zoos to provide them the space and care they need. Some are doing an excellent job though ,Emmen and Keulen for instance. I heard about the breeding - I've seen some of the babies myself. They have made big steps, though breeding still is not going easy. There's still too much stillbirths and deaths of young. also far too common are deaths of adult elephants, which I believe to be partially due to inadequate keeping or care. Big steps have been made already, but I'm convinced more steps are needed. It's not for nothing some are aiming for elephant-free zoos. They do not exactly thrive in captvity so far (or at least, that's my thought). I believe a positive reversal in elephant keeping is possible, but there's a long way to go. And even then, I still have some issues with them, e.g. the fact they even in large exhibits sometimes still show stereotypes (I've seen it) and are animals in great need of space and movement. I believe some zoos can do it well, but some others better do not continue elephant keeping. I'm not saying all should get rid of elephants, but some zoos should. I remember seeing a nice marine park years ago. it was dolfinarium Harderwijk in the Netherlands, I'm sure. They've got I think about 30 dolphins these days ; some are kept in a large laguna and are thriving. At that time ,I might myself think it's oké. But then, I can only accept it that way. Look, I'm not keen on these dolphin shows. I don't like to see these animals do unnatural tricks to get a public cheering and having fun. Almost always ,these animals are in barren, concrete and glass bassins. I've only seen a few dolphin exhibits so far, but I've read some reports and some websites indicating it might not at all be a good idea. Many dolphin babies die and many adults die to early. In some facilities, the dolphins are stressed out and pushed to the limit. Dolphins don't exactly thrive in most facilities. I think that if being kept, it would not be right or doing them well to keep them in these show exhibits. Look ,I'd love to visit Harderwijk again, as I loved the lake back then. But the shows with dolphins in another facility disturb me, so I'm not going there (it's too expensive anyways). I do not feel right about the keeping of dolphins in barren enclosures (plus, some say their sonars and echolocation might cause them great troubles in these enclosures). If kept in the future ,they should be in facilities like the one at Harderwijk. The shows that are nowadays the use, I believe do not have a very high educative or other value but mere amusement and money-catching. If kept in the future, dolphin keeping should have some rigorous re-considering. I'd rather see cetaceans phased out. Especially orcas. This is a species that just does not belong in captivity. Maybe dolphins can be made something of, but I'm still against. I've seen some great bear exhibits. I do not like the one in Emmen too much, but I love the ones at Ouwehands (bear forest, rescueing of bears as well) and Zoom Erlebniswelt. Huge spaces giving the bears the opportunity to roam free in a natural environment and to display their behaviour to the best possibility. Look ,the main thing is bears are great migrators and need large spaces in order not to start walking around stereotypically. I've even seen this in large spaces. The bear pits are these days happily dissapearing in most facilities (for instance, I only know of a few in western europe still having them and have only seen a small amount of bear pits over the last 5 years). The main issue is that breeding is not working out. In polar bears, some births in recent years have convinced me this species to be a species for the future. I don't have the same feeling about brown bears. I still think the husbandry is a problem ,especially in brown bears, as I don't have even a single account of them breeding in recent years. Maybe I've missed it. Look ,bear keeping has still got many issues that need to be solved. If this can be done, I think they have a future in zoos. But I'm unsure. Look, if programs save species, than nothing against. My own local zoo breeds Eurasian black vultures (a wonderfull animal ,by the way) and have already released at least 5 and probably more in I believe the Cevenne in France, where they seem to so far have survived. I'm not very well up with the news though, and not much about it is being released. I haven't said I'm having problem with the keeping an sich. I must say maybe I should have made the title "having seconds thoughts on..." or "having problems with...". I have problems with any species being kept in inadequate housing. All too often, raptors are still. Maybe falconry is better where you live; I've seen the tethering ,chaining and more in different facilities. However, I've also seen some great facilities. What surprises me as well, is how these trainers take care of these birds. They are certainly very much involved with the birds. And I do not mean this in a bad way. Look, I'm not a falconer, so I'm unknowing on the methods of training in raptors. I've seen some people caring a lot and threating them well, but I've also seen different things. I think the presentation ought to get some rigorous revisitation. As to letting the birds fly low over the public ,sit on people's heads ,handlers between the public and such, I think these ought to dissapear from the presentations. If kept further, they should be based on natural behaviour and be educative. I've seen a few very good tries already. I know it's possible to establish a future for many raptors in zoos. Just, some are still troubling me. Maybe's it's emotion in some. You are obviously allowed to disagree, and no need to be sorry. I agree to a great hight that improvement , in-situ conservation ,CBP and more are needed and usefull. I am only convinced a lot more change is needed in zoos and in their relation to public and outside world. There still is far too much too criticize. But good zoos do exist, even with species on my list. I mean, my favourite has most of them besides elephants and cetaceans. I believe most species can have a place, other than cetaceans. But this needs a lot of work.
@Xerxes: "Rude"? "Personal"? Eh? Certainly not; I just impressed the personal (sic!) opinion You asked for. And Newzooboy is totally correct: why ask for our opinions on this controversial subject in the first place if You're afraid of a discussion and don't like the answers given? Maybe You went out on a limb, mate... Judging from Your posts, You'd be happy if all the charismatic megafauna and other popular species disappeared from zoos. Oh my, what a bare zoo world that would be!
