Hi all, I’m new hear and I was wondering if the zoo was breeding Sabi and Zohari now that teddy is almost 2 years old?
Hi Akula welcome! Both girls are to breed with Tom. The zoo sent Tony to Parc Safari last fall to make room for Teddy to be a big boy on his own since the current plan is for him to stay on a little while longer. He is old enough they can breed Zohari again so I think that one is just a matter of time. Sabi on the other hand has proven quite difficult to breed. Both girls have had a recommendation to breed since they arrived. At first Tom didn't know what to do with. He has it down now hence Teddy. Sabi will stand for him but despite the zoo thinking she was pregnant on two different occasions I can think of nothing materialized. She just got fat. Now the pressure is on to get her bred. If she doesn't get pregnant within the next two years odds are she will never have a calf. In November she turns 11 and extremely few female rhinos have calves if they have not had one before they are 13 years old. The zoo is working with reproductive specialists from Cincinnati who happen to be some of the best reproductive specialists when it comes to rhinos in the world. They are the same team that helped the zoo with Indian rhino Asha when she kept miscarrying. They recommended a hormone therapy for Asha that finally allowed her to carry a calf to term and we got Nandu then Kiran as a result. If they cannot get Sabi pregnant with their help Sabi is just not meant to be a mother. Luckily we have Zohari who has been a mother already and a proven bull in Tom so we have a good chance at more calves. It would be fantastic though if we could have two young calves at once. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.
Dear @TZFan, this requires correcting: young rhino cows must be bred before the age of 20 before reproductive senescence might set in without them being bred. I suppose the AZA want to be on the safe side here .... In the case of female Sabi it might be require getting her cycle monitored and evaluated. That they intend to bring in the Cincinnati staff is a good thing, allthough if and when you talk of experienced the Berlin Institute's reproductive experts are probably a better bet. Another thing is male Tom was not experienced which was not helping either (as did Tony's efforts) and that may have put off the females from cycling or being a sleeper. BTW: in terms of breeding white rhino the results in Europe have gradually improved with F1 and F2 generation females starting to breed where previously this was an issue. Having female offspring stay with their mothers in their breeding institution is not helping either (in the wilds the social structure is that young females are driven off by their mothers and when you see a young cow with an adult breeding female they are unrelated as research in the natural state has shown up), a practice still all too common in US collections. Mind you the theory on the relationship between infertility and phyto-oestrogens is a somewhat tenuous one. It might be, ... but more important is to break up herds where breeding adult females and their female offspring are maintained long term. This really needs to change in US collections. Now small changes are being made, but all too often collections keep individuals long term like this.
Thanks for the warm welcome, I was also watching the Facebook live with the Orangutans and was wondering what will happen to the kids? I know Budi is the breeding male but didn’t know what will happen to Kembali and Jingaa
@Kifaru Bwana, I was using the AZA info on breeding age issues. Won't even argue with you because I know you are extremely well versed in rhinos. If you say 20 is more realistic then I take you at your word and hopefully Sabi gets more time because things don't look good. You are right Tony too was inexperienced but he was tried too because he was more aggressive and assertive than Tom so they hoped the girls would stand for him. The girls preferred Tom to Tony so much so that the zoo ended the experiment after not all that long if I recall right. I'll just keep hoping for white rhino calves in the next year or more likely 2. @Akula I can help with the orang question too. Budi is to stay as you said and breed. A decision that annoys me to no end. Because they have sat back and waited for Budi to mature enough that Sekali and Ramai will breed with him both girls have lost an entire breeding cycle and thus a critically endangered species has lost two babies. A male was to come up when the trio of youngsters was 8 or so years old but he died shortly before he was to arrive. Since then the plan is to waste reproductive years waiting for Budi to be mature enough the girls will allow him to breed with them. They were trying to breed earlier and Budi and Sekali were getting on ok but she wouldn't allow him to breed. At some point she decided she wanted nothing to do with him. I don't blame the SSP for not replacing Molek when he died because the kids were still so young but once they were older it was just stupid not to. Not only have they lost two babies but Jingga has not had a chance to witness her mother raising a younger sibling which normally would happen. She would get practice in. Kembali's future is less clear than his big brother. Obviously he has to leave. Sekali is is mom and Ramai is his aunt/cousin and Jingga is his half sister. He is to chill in Toronto until he matures but after that he could go anywhere. I do however have a theory. I believe he has been left to mature in Toronto because he will be Calgary's breeding male when they convert the panda exhibit to an orangutan exhibit. By making him their breeding male it means less border crossings. Not only will Calgary not need a male sent up but Toronto will have to send one less orangutan south. However if they are thinking long term Calgary having a pair that is totally unrelated to Budi, Ramai and Sekali can set up the next generation but that too presents a problem. An unrelated male would be harder to get than a single female for Kembali. Adult male Sumatran orangutans are in short supply. That fact could also mean he's more valuable down south and just a female or two would be brought up and Budi will rotate between Toronto and Calgary as necessary to breed. See Kembali's future is more fuzzy. I would think given the boys age it will become clearer in the next SSP. He will be old enough to breed so if they want him in the US he will probably go. If he doesn't go I would be convinced he is going to Calgary as there is zero point in keeping a much needed potential breeding male in Toronto where hes trapped with females he cannot breed. Jingga on the other hand does have a transfer recommendation. I wont mention where she is slated to go but the recommendation is nearly two years old so I'm not so sure that is still the same plan. She did not have a breeding recommendation at the time because she still would have been under the minimum breeding age the AZA recommends (14). The next SSP should be out sometime in 2021 so we shall see what that brings for her future. If I had my way I would keep her and send Budi away. While Budi is the youngest son of a founder and long time zoo resident Jingga is a better legacy animal to keep. Her great grandparents are Mias and Abigail who like Puppe were the zoos original orangs and founders. Her grandmother is Chantek the first orangutan born in Canada in August 1975. And her grandfather Dinding holds the distinction of being the longest lasting and most prolific breeding male for the zoo. While her uncle Chedrek was the first second generation orang born at the zoo, mother Ramai is also a second generation and the first second generation orang to reach maturity. Jingga is also the first 3rd generation orang not only born at the zoo but to any of the orangs who descent from the originals. Her baby will be the first 4th generation of the zoos orangutan family tree and I can think of no where else that baby should be born the in Toronto! Plus keeping Jingga is better long term planning. At Ramai's age she will only have one more infant if we are lucky. They will not allow her to breed past 40. Sekali will likely only be allowed to produce 2 more. After that the zoo would be stuck with 2 geriatric females and Budi will likely be sent away to breed elsewhere. By keeping Jingga the zoo would get 25 years of potential breeding so 3-4 infants. They can replace the male as necessary which from a genetics standpoint shouldn't be too hard. Despite being prolific Dinding only has 5 descendants alive in North America (only granddaughter Hesty isn't in Toronto and he does have son Dinar is breeding in Australia). Abigail's line only has 8 living descendants in North America (the other 4 are Remy, Baston, Mila, and Hesty). Fun side note there is a descendant of Toronto lines living in the wild today. Dinar, son of Dinding and Abigail, moved to Perth Zoo in 2004. There he has sired 4 infants. Eldest son Semeru was released in 2011 but he was bitten by a snake in his sleep and died. His second son Nyaru has faired better. In 2017 he was released to the wild and to the best of my knowledge is still alive and free.
Thanks for the info @TZFan, I thought I heard the Zoo say jingaa was to move but wasn’t sure. As well I’m pretty sure the Zoo got two cheetah brothers. They were mentioned on the zoo’s podcast. Not sure where they came from and which one or two of the girls they’ll breed with.
Rhino wise I would personally favour that F Sabi be sent to another zoo with no related individuals. Both females Zohari/Zoe and Sabi were born a year apart at Busch Gardens and are half siblings (same sire, different dams) and were imported in 2012. Introductions to 2 bulls have failed (allthough I might add both were inexperienced to begin with and I cannot realistically put my finger on the do's and don'ts of animal husbandry management at MTZ). Break up this relationship and transfer and replace F Sabi with a completely unrelated female and send her to another herd for breeding. Quite possibly The Wilds or White Oak where she can be with various breeding males. She is still young at 10+ (born November 2009) .... Well, just my IMHO.
@Kifaru Bwana I am cool with your plan. I like spreading genetic diversity around. Sabi can go, especially if we got a proven female in return. I think it's very unlikely though. She might be tried with other Canadian bulls but its unlikely we would see a cross border swap just because all of that tends to be such a headache. Bulls they could try with include KC (Tony's brother) at Granby, I dont remember his name but a bull at African Lion Safari, and Haus and Toy at Safari Niagara. I didn't check if anyone is related other than I know Tony is KC's brother. Heck we could keep Sabi and just send her on an extended date until we know she's pregnant and then bring her home or send Teddy away and bring in a different alternative bull. @Akula, I had a long elaborate answer to the cheetah question but then zoochat crashed on me and poof a long answer disappeared. Incoming brothers will likely be Canadian. I highly doubt anyone is coming up from the US at this time although we were to get a fairly decent male in Okubi from San Diego Safari Park who is half king cheetah which is kinda neat. But he wont be arriving with his brother so I think he can be ruled out for now. Then we look to Canadian options. Those are very limited. Parc Safari has the largest roster of eligible bachelors. Sadly the swap with them a few years ago has hindered viable options somewhat. We kept Patonga (Emarah's father) and sent them his full sisters Cleo and Pico and half sister Akeelah. All cubs born there in the past few years are either full or half cousins to Emarah. Likewise they sent us Laini who has full brother Jua and half brother Haraka at Parc Safari and Jua sired one litter and possibly a second (toss up between him and Nyota) meaning his cubs are no good for Laini and Emarah. Clock is ticking on Laini because as an 8 year old she is already past 7 which is when chances of breeding begins to drop sharply therefore a proven breeder should be made high priority. That leaves one combo of brothers Nyota (who only may have produced one litter) and his brother Kilio. They do have another proven male in Pendo so they could be just messing with the word brothers. Most of their males are kept in a brother like coalition despite not being real brothers. Best choice then would be Nyota and Pendo who have clearly shown interest in breeding. If we stick to the brothers there is one other brother option here but its far less desirable, Bemba and Malik potentially. If they have sorted out who sired them they could breed Laini if Nyota is the father and that would be a good match. Emarah on the other hand its the least sticky one if you need to inbreed a little to get a viable male. Their mother is Akeelah so the only relative they share in common is granddad Rafiki. Not ideal but also not the worst inbreeding going on at the zoo.
In all of the recent discussions of your theories I do not see any actual news of births, deaths or transfers so i believe it should all have taken place on the discussion thread. In fact cheetah brothers Clark and David arrived some time ago from Parc Safari and should soon finish their quarantine. Emma and Emarah are alternating in the exhibit and Laini and Bakari are in the valley holdings, although I have heard no recent breeding attempts have taken place because Bakari showed no interest in Laini or Emarah.
Snowy Owl Crystal has been moved to Parc Safari, further emptying Tundra Trek again. Several elderly animals have been euthanized due to aging conditions. 1.0 kangaroo Penong, 1.0 elk Buck, 0.1 moufflon and a tur are all I can think of at the moment.
TZFan and Kifaru Bwana, You guys continue to impress me with your knowledge thanks for answering all my questions. I was wondering if any current breeding is going on right now besides the rhinos and orangutans?
Ah you are right I totally spaced on cheetahs David and Clark arriving to Parc Safari. They would be strong contenders as well then. Due to covid my answers for breeding have changed since winter because a number of potential pairings are missing mates or offspring cant go. The zoo has specifically said they are breeding Przewalski's horses Dudley and Winona after her lost foal. They are very likely breeding kudu Maynard and Rio again after her lost calf. It is highly likely Bactrian camels Zip and Jozy will breed sometime soon. They thought Jozy was pregnant earlier this year but the window for arrival I think has closed. A facebook live did say they were going to be working with the bison females this fall so possibly some calves next spring. And obviously work will be done again with the usual suspects, black footed ferrets, Vancouver Island marmots, Massassauga rattlesnakes, Blanding's turtles and Eastern loggerhead shrikes. Right now would also be the time they would try for Amur tiger cubs but Mazy is a little older. There are lots of other potential pairings and breeding recommendations but I haven't heard anything about them one way or the other.
Not sure how many African Spoonbill Chicks were born. But it hatchlings were confirmed on Dolf DeJong’s Social Media.
Oh great that they finally have spoonbill chicks. They have been waiting for breeding to happen for since getting the male a few years ago. It's a first for the zoo! Hopefully there will be a facebook live showing them off soon.
I saw some pictures on the public Facebook page for the zoo did they just get Paradise Tanagers? I also saw a picture of a frog species I didn't recognize I believe in Americas does anyone know of there displaying a new one?
Mr Wrinkly was correct, cheetah brothers David and Clark have arrived from Parc Safari and will be paired with Laini shortly to get spring cubs, fingers crossed. Both boys have been checked and should be fertile provided Laini and at least one of them find that romantic spark. Little surprised they are not doubling down on their efforts and going for Emarah too but she has more reproductive years ahead of her and it sounds like they will put both boys in to spark competition for Laini. In that case they need to focus. If Laini has cubs come spring they can work with Emarah next fall and hopefully get back to back litters. David and Clark are originally from Wildlife Safari in Oregon which has a very strong cheetah program. It's one of the most consistent producers of cubs so lets hope the boys take after their parents. In other Savanna news the Southern ground hornbills are hard at work on their nesting cavity and the zoo is hopeful for another chick by the tail end of the year. I do wonder how many more chicks Biko and Catelyn will be allowed to have. Currently they have six chicks to their credit, 3 older girls and 3 younger boys. The population isn't that large so they may be becoming overrepresented. However they are wild born and fantastic parents and it does take quite some time for chicks to mature with no guarantee they will in turn reproduce.
Does the zoo still keep the following species -swamp wallaby -snowy owl -Arctic Fox Also as someone mentioned above, Buck the elk passed away this year. The zoo is now down to a single elk, which is Buck’s sister. Also the zoo still has many old animals still thriving including the jaguars, gibbons, Puppe the orangutan, Fred the otter, the prehensile-tailed porcupine,and Charles and Josephine the gorillas. Fred the otter actually came in 2000 and he was wild-born, making him one of the oldest otters I have known of!
@Kevin2342 no the zoo doesn't have any swamp wallaby since the death of Francesca earlier this year. It is a species not typically kept by the AZA. Hopefully the zoo gets a second wallaby species but no news on that at all. Snowy owl, Crystal, was transferred out so the zoo is also currently without snowy owls. I have no idea why the zoo would ship her out. Tundra Trek needs tundra animals and the snowy owl exhibit while really underwhelming did provide another arctic species. Hopefully we will get another one or two but again I don't know if that's going to happen. There are no arctic foxes since the deaths of Elsa and Tempette. I have no clue what the zoo will do with the exhibit. Last time we were out of foxes it took more than 2 years to get more foxes. Toronto doesn't have a stellar record with foxes. Only one of the 7 foxes the zoo has owned has died of something other then a brain problem. Which begs the question is there something wrong with the exhibit or its bio security? Or are they getting foxes with a genetic issue? I think virtually all of them came from Parc Safari. It will come down to whether the zoo wants to get more or not. The zoo definitely is reaching end of lifespan for a number of animals. The next few years may seem a little rough in terms of deaths. I can think of at least 30 other animals at the zoo who are probably going to pass in the next say 5 years from old age. The zoo goes through phases like this where there will be a flurry of old age deaths. The last really big round that made the zoo look bad was in the late 2000's. But that was back when the zoo only announced big deaths and seldom touted its births and conservation work to counter balance the bad news. With good old Fred it is really just a shame that he has never bred. African spotted necked otters are incredibly difficult to breed in captivity and if they do the newborns have a very high mortality rate. Toronto only had one pup born to the zoo's first pair of otters in 1988. She lived less and a month. Matthew and Winnie didn't have pups. Fred has been unsuccessful as well with both Ginger and Lila. Not that there was much hope with Lila given his age at the time of her arrival.
While not actually birth news this has a direct impact on future births. Adult wolves Dora, Nuna, and Inneq were spayed. That puts breeding at the zoo to an end for the time being. Other adult female Anori has been put on a birth control implant instead. Dora was spayed as she is getting too old to breed anyway so to prevent any reproductive tract issues it was best she just not have it anymore. Nuna and Inneq will not need to be breeding stock in their future home which sounds like its been selected. Not sure if some of the boys will join them. Anori has been left intact because her future has yet to be decided.
