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White Lions

Discussion in 'General Zoo Discussion' started by Jarkari, 8 Sep 2006.

  1. Jarkari

    Jarkari Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering what everyone here thinks of the White Lions. Mogo Zoo has some they obtained free of charge from Joburg Zoo but with conditions. I have been offered a few from a friend and private breeder in South Africa. Pure whit lions 1:2:0 and Tawnies that carry white genes 1:2:0. In all six lion cubs all hand raised of varying ages. As of yet I don't have my park established. My original plan was to buy the Lions off Mareeba if it did not sell and move them down to my property in new south wales for temporary holding until I could find a larger property to build a lion and big cat park. but the cost for building this could run into millions and millions. So yeah, I was just wondering what you all thought of White Lions. If you want to know about my plans please contact me privately as I am trying to keep this pretty low until I am ready to open. In this thread I am mainly interested in knowing what you think of the cats.

    Thanks again
     
  2. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    i think they are great, and if you have an intergrated pride of twanies and whites, even better, thou they may not accept each other, i think we should be trying to preseve variants of species as well, but as long as we go species first than variants, and not for money
     
  3. ZooPro

    ZooPro Well-Known Member

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    I personally have problems with the display of unusual color variants of any species. It's bordering on the freak show mentality in my mind. However, I have even bigger concerns with attempting to "integate" them with tawny lions - why display a color mutation, and then encourage them to interbreed with animals of the normal color phase. This drags zoos down to the level of some private aviculturists who choose to hybridise various parrot species.

    Mogo Zoo are supposed to be keeping the white lions separately from the tawnies, and the ARAZPA breeding program specifically reccommends AGAINST housing and breeding white lions. The major zoos in the region have been working very hard over the past 10-15 years to eliminate any lions carrying white genes, and it is unfortunate that Mogo went again regional reccomendations and imported the white lions from South Africa.
     
  4. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    hang on, mate, white lions are a naturally occuring breed much like tigers, so theres nothing wrong with it, and breeding with twany is normal, it happens in wild, its just to maintain the recessive gene.
     
  5. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

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    ahhhh,

    that'd be why mogo stated when they impoted them, that they were def not for a breeding program within the region and that only mogo would be only zoo to ever house them..

    makes sense!
     
  6. Monty

    Monty Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone watched the show on the ABC Lion Man about the bloke in NZ with Zion I think it is called. On this program it was stated that the white lions in the breeding program in South Africa where inbred and he showed a white cub which had come from tawney lions. Breeding the white lions with others would increase their genetic diversity and as they are the same species there should be nothing wrong with it.

    I can not see why any group would be for elimenating animals which carry the white gene if it is naturaly occuring in the wild population.
     
  7. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Administrator Staff Member

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    I saw one episode last week - was quite interesting, although I came in half way through and missed a lot of the context ... I didn't realise the guy was a kiwi until half way through (although his accent should have given him away).
     
  8. Jarkari

    Jarkari Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys,
    Originally I had no plans to display the lions to the public as this will add considerably to the huge amounts to obtain the cats and build a breeding facility. I am however still considering this and leaving my options open until I return from a trip to SriLanka and South Africa to work with Elephants and Lions respectively. The Lions at Mogo Zoo indeed are in a breeding program. Not within Australasia but with the African breeders. I would be breeding mine not with pure tawnies but with white gene carriers that are tawny... I will also breed them them with my own stock... As was mentioned by another person in this thread the purpose of breeding whites with tawnies is to spread the genes out. A white lion can only pass on the white gene therefore any offspring of a pure tawny and a pure white will carry the genes and have the potential to producee white offspring when bred with another gene carrier. The physical colour of the cat doesn't affect the cubs colour. The gentic makeup, as I'm sure your all aware is what gives them that colour. I am very interested in what you have said and would like to hear more.

    Thanks
     
  9. ZooPro

    ZooPro Well-Known Member

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    Jarkari, this is very interesting. Do you think you'll be given permits to import additional lions? And do you have plans for any offspring you breed? Since most of the zoos in the region that have lions aren't interested in white lions, or animals that carry the white gene, what would you do with any offspring that you breed?
     
  10. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    well i would like to add, that jakari has told me he has many acres which he could house many big cats and elephants on. i hope this comes sbout, will be a fantastic place
     
  11. ZooPro

    ZooPro Well-Known Member

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    But what is the value of breeding loads of lions, and keeping them on acres of land, but not open to the public? That's my point.
     
  12. Monty

    Monty Well-Known Member

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    If you could afford to do it and the animals are well looked after I dont see anything wrong with it
     
  13. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    animals would be better away from public, any animal lover would see that in full, most zookeepers would love to have zoos closed, quite for breeding, more room , so much better for animals
     
  14. patrick

    patrick Well-Known Member

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    i think you'll find that the benifits of displaying white lions (such as increased interest by the public) are far outweighed by the costs of importing and exporting lions due to the fact that you can't have a co-operative breeding program with other australian zoos.

    they are great looking cats but really, is it worth it?
     
  15. Jarkari

    Jarkari Well-Known Member

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    Originally I had no intentions of exhibiting lions. I would probabl;y keep the first generation of whites I bred then any following litters would be sent back to south africa and the white lion projects over there. I also said originally I had no intentions of displaying the white lions, I was however planning on opening a big cat education centre with Lions, tigers, puma and leopards purchased from within australia and cheetah from south africa (unforuantely australia's cheetah population is already too large and the goverment won't let any more dewildt's cats in but that's another story and elephant sanctuary on my property, with the white lions off exhibit in a private breeding facility, however I thought this would deprive the public of a unique oppurtunity so i have also considered opening the white lions for special private guided tours. Someone mentione that the cost would be huge for importing them. I am not worried if I end up having to pay millions to build a place to house the world beautiful cats and save the elephants. Money is not what worries me. I only need enough to support the park, I am into this industry because I love animals, not money. I have also been approached by a few parties asking me if i would be interested in hiring out the animals i obtain for film and television. I know that I will be able to support the programs I embark on, financially anyway. Any Tawnmy Lions that come from my australian bought cats will be separated into bachelor prides and eventually placed in a large drive through safari. There are also plans for twenty individual cats so there will be plenty of room to separate animals that may breed if breeding is not wanted. Things are still only being planned and we are looking for an even larger site and the perfect locatio. Actually, does anyone know where a zoo might be good. I have dubbo two hours to one side of me, taronga three hours away on another and canberra three hours away on the other side.

    Cheers
     
  16. Jarkari

    Jarkari Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, forgot to answer your questions zoopro.
    I think it could be tricky getting the permits to import but my zoo consultants know how to get what I won't and they'll do whatever they can to get them in. My final plan is to buy a huge block of land in the NT and build a huge African Zoo with drive through exhibits and if possible (which is highly unlikely) obtaining african elephants. So some lions would be held for that property. My collection of lions (not the whites) will be coming from sydney and as they will be related they will not be bred unless I can find some unrealted Tawnies within Australia. However when I do have a breeding pair of pure tawnies they will either be kept separated from eachother or bred whenI am asked for cubs. It is more common than most of you would probably think to be askewd for lions for private zoos/collections. So the cubs would be sold onto them If not I would keep them.

    Cheers
     
  17. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Administrator Staff Member

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    I would suggest somewhere around the Bathurst/Orange region would be ideal - good facilities nearby - big enough to provide a local tourist base and with enough existing facilities to cater for inbound tourists. I wouldn't want to be more than 30 - 40 minutes from a major population center.

    That area is also close enough to Sydney/Dubbo/Canberra as you mentioned. However I'm not sure if the climate is suitable ? I don't know how much climate affects these animals ... and Dubbo gets pretty cold too I guess.

    An alternative would be somewhere north like Tamworth / Armidale (again, climate could be an issue as you get higher into the mountains) ... or south - closer to Wagga or Albury (start to tap into the Victorian market there too) ... and if it's not too far from the freeway, you'd tap into the Sydney / Melbourne markets better too.

    Then again, if your prime focus isn't to attract lots of people, then you can afford to go further out where land is potentially cheaper. I think a more arid climate might be better ... how about South Australia ... or north eastern Victoria ?
     
  18. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    well ya better hurry, my boss has been looking to start a private zoo, he has council approvment, all he needs is funds
     
  19. Jarkari

    Jarkari Well-Known Member

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    Hey again,
    Where abouts in bathurst is he planning to build. I have alot to do with bathurst, my sister is a police officer there and a mate of mine wants some help with a coffee shop he's opening there (good place, go there when it opens) Do you know what kind of animals he's planning on housing. The thing is difference between zoos. like cairns, you can have five different zoos within half an hour of eacheother but because they all have different focus animals they all attract the same amounts of tourists, many tour companies have trips that visit all of them. I will be focusing on Big Cats, If I can get them Eles and a few primates on our first property. My exhibit designers have designed enclosures including Tiger Island and Sea World's Polar Bear shores, however I'm not sure this is how I want to go. I think more open and less artificial crap. I have just been told by some mates in South Africa that they can provide me with cheetah unrelated (as much as possible)_ to aust. populations and he has just had triplet lion cubs born... one tawny and two white. He offered them to me but I will not be ready for them til atleast june next year. I think people will travel anywhere for a unique experience which is what I aim to provide, unfortunately NSW laws are too strict to let even me interact with adult cats I have hand raised which is my main problem. I have to decide if I want to display my animals under a zoo licence, keep them under a pest animal licence or travel with them to schools and get a circus licence (personally the last on makes me a bit sick but this is the only way, other than keeping them off public display, that I will be able to interact with my cats) Still in the early stages but things are getting there.
     
  20. Zoo_Boy

    Zoo_Boy Well-Known Member

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    hay mate, i would prefer not to dicus the bathurst zoo, as i have to keep it under wraps, though i am more than happy to talk fvia private message or phone, as for the circus/travel thing, i personally think the community may have opposintion, though if it raised money for zoo, i mean oz zoo and orana ? in new zealand do it, and raise about $2000 out of a single aninimal visit. about interacting with with cats, i no dubbo does alot with its cats hands on- though only cheetah mind you, the keepers do play with them and there cubs, note not animals they are trying to breed.