Zoochat "A Gap In Nature" Extinct Taxon Challenge

TeaLovingDave · 7 Mar 2020

Having recently been reading through my copies of A Gap In Nature (Flannery, 2001) and various of the books by Errol Fuller on the subject of extinct species, I found myself reflecting on the idea that a challenge focused on the topic of extinction, and the now-lost taxa which survive only in natural history museums scattered throughout the world, would perhaps be of interest to the members of Zoochat.

This challenge, therefore, will hopefully both raise awareness of what we have already lost (and perhaps allow people to learn about species they had never heard of previously) and - bit by bit - form a useful catalogue of where exactly we can see the last remains of these gaps in the patchwork of nature.

My thinking is that this challenge will comprise two segments - the second theoretically has a completion state, although I suspect it will never be reached, whilst the first does not, and although I envision it continuing beyond this de-facto time limit if it is successful, I propose that the challenge will run until March 1st 2021 and will retrospectively be held to have started on the aforementioned date this year..... and yes, that means that if by chance you've seen qualifying material since the start of this month it *can* be counted.

So.... what are the two segments?

Most representatives of extinct taxa seen in museums and other such collections BARRING GREAT AUK.

Most taxidermy mounts of Great Auk seen.

For the first sub-challenge, the format I am looking for in terms of posts is as follows:

1) Species name - Genus species (subspecies if relevant) - Location seen - Material seen
1) Quagga - Equus quagga quagga - Scottish National Museum - Taxidermy Mount

Duplicate taxa *are* allowed - we're aiming to promote where things are kept and displayed after all - but note that the remains have to be genuine and not artistic representations (as is the case with all "stuffed dodos") or plaster casts (as is the case with the dodo head and foot currently on-display in Oxford). The remains have to be seen on-display from a public area to count for the challenge, but any remains seen behind the scenes in museum tours or so forth can still be mentioned as an appendix to your totals. Otherwise, a few general rules:

1) Proof via photographs is not required.
2) Taxa which have been lost since c.1500 only; this means that the only moa taxon accepted is the Upland Moa, which is generally thought to have held on until around this time. No elephant birds or giant lemurs etc
3) Species whose continued existence is a matter of uncertainty will be allowed on a case-by-case basis; I'll say straight up that we will be counting Thylacine, Ivory-billed Woodpecker, Pink-headed Duck and Eskimo Curlew, for instance.
4) Report/update your progress on this thread as you go along.

The second sub-challenge (prompted by the fact that Fuller's The Great Auk contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material) will be similar, but limited to that species only, and taxidermy mounts alone. As many of the extant specimens are not on public display, and the location of a few is now unknown, for this one we will permit specimens which anyone has been lucky enough to see behind the scenes.

amur leopard · 7 Mar 2020

So this challenge is basically first to get to Paris Natural history museum

Anyway, going to the NHM tomorrow hopefully so should get a Great Auk and a few others perhaps on my list

Does Barbary lion count given that Vienna and other zoos have claimed to have them on display despite alleged extinction?

Great idea for a thread by the way

TeaLovingDave · 7 Mar 2020

amur leopard said: ↑

New So this challenge is basically first to get to Paris Natural history museum
Click to expand...

Oh, there's better places

amur leopard said: ↑

Does Barbary lion count given that Vienna and other zoos have claimed to have them on display despite alleged extinction?
Click to expand...

I'll say yes for this - of course, the key issue then is proving any given mount is Barbary!

birdsandbats · 8 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

Having recently been reading through my copies of A Gap In Nature (Flannery, 2001) and various of the books by Errol Fuller on the subject of extinct species, I found myself reflecting on the idea that a challenge focused on the topic of extinction, and the now-lost taxa which survive only in natural history museums scattered throughout the world, would perhaps be of interest to the members of Zoochat.

This challenge, therefore, will hopefully both raise awareness of what we have already lost (and perhaps allow people to learn about species they had never heard of previously) and - bit by bit - form a useful catalogue of where exactly we can see the last remains of these gaps in the patchwork of nature.

My thinking is that this challenge will comprise two segments - the second theoretically has a completion state, although I suspect it will never be reached, whilst the first does not, and although I envision it continuing beyond this de-facto time limit if it is successful, I propose that the challenge will run until March 1st 2021 and will retrospectively be held to have started on the aforementioned date this year..... and yes, that means that if by chance you've seen qualifying material since the start of this month it *can* be counted.

So.... what are the two segments?

Most representatives of extinct taxa seen in museums and other such collections BARRING GREAT AUK.

Most taxidermy mounts of Great Auk seen.

For the first sub-challenge, the format I am looking for in terms of posts is as follows:

1) Species name - Genus species (subspecies if relevant) - Location seen - Material seen
1) Quagga - Equus quagga quagga - Scottish National Museum - Taxidermy Mount

Duplicate taxa *are* allowed - we're aiming to promote where things are kept and displayed after all - but note that the remains have to be genuine and not artistic representations (as is the case with all "stuffed dodos") or plaster casts (as is the case with the dodo head and foot currently on-display in Oxford). The remains have to be seen on-display from a public area to count for the challenge, but any remains seen behind the scenes in museum tours or so forth can still be mentioned as an appendix to your totals. Otherwise, a few general rules:

1) Proof via photographs is not required.
2) Taxa which have been lost since c.1500 only; this means that the only moa taxon accepted is the Upland Moa, which is generally thought to have held on until around this time. No elephant birds or giant lemurs etc
3) Species whose continued existence is a matter of uncertainty will be allowed on a case-by-case basis; I'll say straight up that we will be counting Thylacine, Ivory-billed Woodpecker, Pink-headed Duck and Eskimo Curlew, for instance.
4) Report/update your progress on this thread as you go along.

The second sub-challenge (prompted by the fact that Fuller's The Great Auk contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material) will be similar, but limited to that species only, and taxidermy mounts alone. As many of the extant specimens are not on public display, and the location of a few is now unknown, for this one we will permit specimens which anyone has been lucky enough to see behind the scenes.
Click to expand...

What makes the Great Auk any different? Is it because this is a common taxidermy mount in Europe? This is not at all common in the US - where as every museum around here has at least 2 taxidermy Passenger Pigeons - usually closer to the 5-10 range.

amur leopard · 8 Mar 2020

birdsandbats said: ↑

What makes the Great Auk any different? Is it because this is a common taxidermy mount in Europe? This is not at all common in the US - where as every museum around here has at least 2 taxidermy Passenger Pigeons - usually closer to the 5-10 range.
Click to expand...

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

The second sub-challenge (prompted by the fact that Fuller's The Great Auk contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material) will be similar, but limited to that species only, and taxidermy mounts alone. As many of the extant specimens are not on public display, and the location of a few is now unknown, for this one we will permit specimens which anyone has been lucky enough to see behind the scenes.
Click to expand...

TeaLovingDave · 8 Mar 2020

birdsandbats said: ↑

What makes the Great Auk any different? Is it because this is a common taxidermy mount in Europe? This is not at all common in the US - where as every museum around here has at least 2 taxidermy Passenger Pigeons - usually closer to the 5-10 range.
Click to expand...

Because, as AL has noticed, the aforementioned book by Errol Fuller contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material and therefore it is possible to work out how complete any given total is I don't have the book at hand presently, but from memory something like 15-20 of the extant specimens are in the USA.

Tim May · 8 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

....the aforementioned book by Errol Fuller contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material and therefore it is possible to work out how complete any given total is...
Click to expand...

The late Reinhold Rau compiled a full listing of quagga material and Stephen Sleightholme did likewise for thylacines so it should be possible to work out how complete the totals are for these too...

amur leopard · 8 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

Because, as AL has noticed, the aforementioned book by Errol Fuller contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material and therefore it is possible to work out how complete any given total is I don't have the book at hand presently, but from memory something like 15-20 of the extant specimens are in the USA.
Click to expand...

Is it 78 specimens in total?

I've done some digging and found that there are a few good collections around London that hold quite a few relevant specimens. Are functionally extinct animals going to count? And if one were to see a quagga skull and skin at the same collection, would that count as two?

TeaLovingDave · 8 Mar 2020

amur leopard said: ↑

Is it 78 specimens in total?
Click to expand...

Something like that, yes.

amur leopard said: ↑

Are functionally extinct animals going to count?
Click to expand...

I think I'll judge that one on a case-by-case basis, as some species are nigh-certain to be truly extinct but aren't officially classified as such - the Pink-headed Duck for instance.

amur leopard said: ↑

And if one were to see a quagga skull and skin at the same collection, would that count as two?
Click to expand...

Indeed, as long as one was certain the skull was from a quagga - if it was just labelled as Equus quagga I'd be inclined to say no.

amur leopard · 8 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

I think I'll judge that one on a case-by-case basis, as some species are nigh-certain to be truly extinct but aren't officially classified as such - the Pink-headed Duck for instance.
Click to expand...

I was thinking more along the lines of the Northern white rhinoceros.

Can we trust a museum labelling a species as correct?
Otherwise, museum plans for today didn't work out so it will have to be next weekend

TeaLovingDave · 8 Mar 2020

amur leopard said: ↑

I was thinking more along the lines of the Northern white rhinoceros.
Click to expand...

Fair chance it will qualify within the year sadly - but not at present.

twilighter · 14 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

Having recently been reading through my copies of A Gap In Nature (Flannery, 2001) and various of the books by Errol Fuller on the subject of extinct species, I found myself reflecting on the idea that a challenge focused on the topic of extinction, and the now-lost taxa which survive only in natural history museums scattered throughout the world, would perhaps be of interest to the members of Zoochat.

This challenge, therefore, will hopefully both raise awareness of what we have already lost (and perhaps allow people to learn about species they had never heard of previously) and - bit by bit - form a useful catalogue of where exactly we can see the last remains of these gaps in the patchwork of nature.

My thinking is that this challenge will comprise two segments - the second theoretically has a completion state, although I suspect it will never be reached, whilst the first does not, and although I envision it continuing beyond this de-facto time limit if it is successful, I propose that the challenge will run until March 1st 2021 and will retrospectively be held to have started on the aforementioned date this year..... and yes, that means that if by chance you've seen qualifying material since the start of this month it *can* be counted.

So.... what are the two segments?

Most representatives of extinct taxa seen in museums and other such collections BARRING GREAT AUK.

Most taxidermy mounts of Great Auk seen.

For the first sub-challenge, the format I am looking for in terms of posts is as follows:

1) Species name - Genus species (subspecies if relevant) - Location seen - Material seen
1) Quagga - Equus quagga quagga - Scottish National Museum - Taxidermy Mount

Duplicate taxa *are* allowed - we're aiming to promote where things are kept and displayed after all - but note that the remains have to be genuine and not artistic representations (as is the case with all "stuffed dodos") or plaster casts (as is the case with the dodo head and foot currently on-display in Oxford). The remains have to be seen on-display from a public area to count for the challenge, but any remains seen behind the scenes in museum tours or so forth can still be mentioned as an appendix to your totals. Otherwise, a few general rules:

1) Proof via photographs is not required.
2) Taxa which have been lost since c.1500 only; this means that the only moa taxon accepted is the Upland Moa, which is generally thought to have held on until around this time. No elephant birds or giant lemurs etc
3) Species whose continued existence is a matter of uncertainty will be allowed on a case-by-case basis; I'll say straight up that we will be counting Thylacine, Ivory-billed Woodpecker, Pink-headed Duck and Eskimo Curlew, for instance.
4) Report/update your progress on this thread as you go along.

The second sub-challenge (prompted by the fact that Fuller's The Great Auk contains a complete listing of all known surviving Great Auk material) will be similar, but limited to that species only, and taxidermy mounts alone. As many of the extant specimens are not on public display, and the location of a few is now unknown, for this one we will permit specimens which anyone has been lucky enough to see behind the scenes.
Click to expand...

Considering the current situation of uncertainty, it is likely that many of us will not be able to visit new zoological institutions soon. May be @TeaLovingDave and the other staff members should consider Historical Challenges, based on previous visits. This particular one looks like perfect candidate for me, since the collections in the Natural History Museums are not changing as rapidly as the in Zoos and we can gather interesting information for a future visits

amur leopard · 14 Mar 2020

twilighter said: ↑

Considering the current situation of uncertainty, it is likely that many of us will not be able to visit new zoological institutions soon. May be @TeaLovingDave and the other staff members should consider Historical Challenges, based on previous visits. This particular one looks like perfect candidate for me, since the collections in the Natural History Museums are not changing as rapidly as the in Zoos and we can gather interesting information for a future visits
Click to expand...

That is a good point. I guess the only problem is that there is no way of verifying and everything has to be done from memory. Of course everyone would start really quickly, but I can't remember all the species I have seen in, for example, the ROM in Toronto or the Lyon Natural history museum, and I think that might be a problem for past lists for others as well. In terms of larger museums like London and Paris, I have (sketchy) lists of all the species there, so it should be feasible to do it that way.

Another problem, as ever, is remembering whether one ever even went into the gallery containing the animals in question. In the case of the NHM, they are spread all around Hintze Hall (upstairs and downstairs) and there are also several in the mammal gallery in the less obvious areas as well as in the Bird area. This I guess means that you will not only have to remember if you saw it but also where you saw it because more often than not they are incredibly spread out.

FBBird · 14 Mar 2020

Not sure I've interpreted this correctly, but I've seen Huia, Thylacine, Passenger Pigeon, Quagga, and I think Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Great Auk of course.

twilighter · 14 Mar 2020

amur leopard said: ↑

That is a good point. I guess the only problem is that there is no way of verifying and everything has to be done from memory. Of course everyone would start really quickly, but I can't remember all the species I have seen in, for example, the ROM in Toronto or the Lyon Natural history museum, and I think that might be a problem for past lists for others as well. In terms of larger museums like London and Paris, I have (sketchy) lists of all the species there, so it should be feasible to do it that way.

Another problem, as ever, is remembering whether one ever even went into the gallery containing the animals in question. In the case of the NHM, they are spread all around Hintze Hall (upstairs and downstairs) and there are also several in the mammal gallery in the less obvious areas as well as in the Bird area. This I guess means that you will not only have to remember if you saw it but also where you saw it because more often than not they are incredibly spread out.
Click to expand...

Even, if you do not have the full list is still interesting for me to know the extinct mammal spices Lyon Natural history museum holds, for example Been in New York, London, Paris, Vienna and Oslo NHMs, but some remote institution like Tring, somethings have extraordinary collections.

amur leopard · 14 Mar 2020

twilighter said: ↑

Even, if you do not have the full list is still interesting for me to know the extinct mammal spices Lyon Natural history museum holds, for example Been in New York, London, Paris, Vienna and Oslo NHMs, but some remote institution like Tring, somethings have extraordinary collections.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are some really great small collections out there.
I have been trying to get to Tring for a while now but never found the opportunity, and likewise the Powell-Cotton museum in Kent. Lyon was somewhat surprisingly quite a nice place, though nowhere near on the scale of the big hitters.
Anyway, getting back on track, I should be visiting the NHM next week and so fingers crossed I will be able to kick off my list then

TeaLovingDave · 14 Mar 2020

amur leopard said: ↑

Anyway, getting back on track, I should be visiting the NHM next week and so fingers crossed I will be able to kick off my list then
Click to expand...

Running through the various displays in my head I think you'll get at least three or four species

Mo Hassan · 14 Mar 2020

Ooh what a nice idea for a thread! Since I keep a pretty detailed database of taxa seen at museums/zoos/other places, including conservation status and photos, this shouldn't be too hard to play (for historic visits at least... can't see myself getting to many of these in person in the near future however). I haven't formatted it exactly as TeaLovingDave suggested above but all the details are present.

Bubal hartebeest
Alcelaphus buselaphus
mounted head at Natural History Museum, Tring

Daudin's giant tortoise
Aldabrachelys gigantea daudini
preserved specimen at Naturmuseum Senckenberg, Frankfurt

Mauritius blue pigeon
Alectroenas nitidissima
stuffed specimen at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Vogl's harlequin toad
Atelopus vogli
preserved specimen at Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt

Aurochs
Bos primigenius
skulls at AMNH, New York, Bristol City Museum, Cambridge Zoology Museum; teeth at Natural History Museum, London

Labrador duck
Camptorhynchus labradorius
stuffed specimens at AMNH, New York

Northern pig-footed bandicoot
Chaeropus yirratji
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

Malagasy pygmy hippopotamus
Choeropsis madagascariensis
skull and mandible at Natural History Museum, London

Carolina parakeet
Conuropsis carolinensis
stuffed specimens at Natural History Museum, London and Tring

New Zealand quail
Coturnix novaezelandiae
stuffed specimens at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Passenger pigeon
Ectopistes migratorius
stuffed specimens at AMNH, New York and Natural History Museum, London

Tarpan
Equus ferus ferus
teeth at Bristol City Museum and Natural History Museum, London

Quagga
Equus quagga quagga
skull at Galerie d'Anatomie Comparée, Paris; stuffed specimens at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh, Naturmuseum Senckenberg, Frankfurt, and Natural History Museum, London

Huia
Heteralocha acutirostris
stuffed specimens at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, Manchester Museum, and Natural History Museum, London

Malagasy dwarf hippopotamus
Hippopotamus lemerlei
skulls at AMNH, New York and Cambridge Zoology Museum

Steller's sea cow
Hydrodamalis gigas
skulls/skeletons at Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, Natural History Museum, London, Naturmuseum Senckenberg, Frankfurt, and Galerie d'Anatomie Comparée, Paris

Lesser bilby
Macrotis leucura
stuffed specimen at Natural History Museum, Tring

Martinique giant rice rat
Megalomys desmarestii
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

St. Lucia giant rice rat
Megalomys luciae
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

Caribbean monk seal
Neomonachus tropicalis
skeleton at Cambridge Zoology Museum

Toolache wallaby
Notamacropus greyi
stuffed specimen at Natural History Museum, Tring

Crescent nail-tail wallaby
Onychogalea lunata
stuffed specimens at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris and Natural History Museum, Tring

Barbary lion
Panthera leo leo
skull at Natural History Museum, London

Cape lion
Panthera leo melanochaita
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

Rodrigues solitaire
Pezophaps solitarius
skeletons at Cambridge Zoology Museum and National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Great auk
Pinguinus impennis
stuffed specimens at Cambridge Zoology Museum and Natural History Museum, London; skeleton at Naturmuseum Senckenberg, Frankfurt

Broad-faced potoroo
Potorous platyops
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

Paradise parrot
Psephotellus pulcherrimus
stuffed specimens at Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt and Manchester Museum

Small Mauritian flying fox
Pteropus subniger
stuffed specimen at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris

Dodo
Raphus cucullatus
skeletons at Cambridge Zoology Museum and Galerie de Paléontologie, Paris; skulls at Cambridge Zoology Museum and Natural History Museum, London; bones at Grant Museum of Zoology, London and Manchester Museum

Schomburgk's deer
Rucervus schomburgki
antlers at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Thylacine
Thylacinus cynocephalus
skulls/skeletons at AMNH, New York, Cambridge Zoology Museum, Galerie d'Anatomie Comparée, Paris, Grant Museum of Zoology, London, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, Oxford Museum of Natural History; stuffed specimens at Brussels Museum of Natural Sciences, Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh, and Natural History Museum, Tring

South Island piopio
Turnagra capensis capensis
stuffed specimen at Manchester Museum

Bushwren
Xenicus longipes
stuffed specimen at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Not officially extinct but likely so:

Pink-headed duck
Rhodonessa caryophyllacea
skeleton at Cambridge Zoology Museum; stuffed specimen at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

Ivory-billed woodpecker
Campephilus principalis
stuffed specimen at Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt

Eskimo curlew
Numenius borealis
stuffed specimen at National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh

I didn't include any seen behind the scenes but there are some more thylacine and great auk localities and an additional taxon, Sardinian pika Prolagus sardus, seen BTS at NHM London

amur leopard · 15 Mar 2020

TeaLovingDave said: ↑

Running through the various displays in my head I think you'll get at least three or four species
Click to expand...

I think there might just be 6 thanks to a specimen next to the hippopotamus in the mammal gallery mentioned by @Mo Hassan

Tim May · 15 Mar 2020

Mo Hassan said: ↑

Ooh what a nice idea for a thread! Since I keep a pretty detailed database of taxa seen at museums/zoos/other places, including conservation status and photos, this shouldn't be too hard to play (for historic visits at least...
Click to expand...

Thanks for this very interesting post.

I have visited most of the museums you list, so have seen most of the specimens that you mention, although regrettably I have never visited the Darmstadt Museum. However last time I was in the Mainz Museum, the Darmstadt quagga was on show there. (I don't know if that was a temporary loan or whether it has been moved there permanently.)

Like you, I doubt I'll do much museum visiting in the near future (as the coronavirus will doubtless curtail my activities) so I won't participate in this competition but I have made a few comments that might be of interest.

One extinct species I've seen that doesn't feature on your list is the blaubok; I have seen two mounted specimens of this antelope; one in the Paris Museum and one in the Leiden Museum.

Mo Hassan said: ↑

Quagga
Equus quagga quagga
skull at Galerie d'Anatomie Comparée, Paris; stuffed specimens at Grande Galerie d'Évolution, Paris, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Darmstadt, National Museum Scotland, Edinburgh, Naturmuseum Senckenberg, Frankfurt, and Natural History Museum, London
Click to expand...

There is a quagga skeleton (that only has three legs) in the Grant Museum, University College, London.

I have seen the following mounted quaggas:-
(a) Natural History Museum; London; sadly no longer on exhibit (this is believed to be the first London Zoo quagga which died in 1834)
(b) Tring Museum (according to Reinhold Rau, this is the animal that once belonged to Lord Stanley, Earl of Derby, and which lived in the Knowsley Menagerie)
(c) Edinburgh Museum (this is the London Zoo quagga that died in 1872 and is the only quagga known to have been photographed in life)
(d) Paris Museum
(e) Leiden Museum
(f) Basle Museum
(g) Berlin Museum
(h) Frankfurt Museum
(i) Munich Museum
(j) Mainz Museum: on my last visit here there was a wonderful group of five quagga on display; four belonging to the Mainz Museum plus the Darmstadt quagga too.

Quagga group; Mainz Museum; 9th September 2010 - ZooChat

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