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ZooChat Cup Group C: Plzen vs Rotterdam

Discussion in 'ZooChat Cup' started by CGSwans, 22 Oct 2019.

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Plzen vs Rotterdam: ungulates

Poll closed 24 Oct 2019.
  1. Plzen 3-0 Rotterdam

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Plzen 2-1 Rotterdam

    44.7%
  3. Rotterdam 2-1 Plzen

    55.3%
  4. Rotterdam 3-0 Plzen

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    Two zoos that couldn’t be much more different in style and presentation go head to head on... ungulates.
     
  2. Ebirah766

    Ebirah766 Well-Known Member

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    I'll comment here so I can see the arguments for both sides.
     
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  3. lintworm

    lintworm Well-Known Member

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    This is a close contest and I could settle for a tie here.

    For some background here are the species lists:

    Both
    Greater kudu, Blackbuck, Vicuna, Pygmy hippo, Chapman's zebra, Indian rhino

    Plzen
    Musk ox, Blesbok, Reeves' muntjac, Dall sheep, Collared peccary, Lechwe, Bighorn sheep, Javan rusa, Chinese goral, Nyala, Rotschildt's giraffe, Warthog, Wisent, Wapiti (nannodes), Kulan, Kiang

    Rotterdam
    Balabac mousedeer, Forest reindeer, Banteng, Mhor gazelle, Visayan warty pig, Reticulated giraffe, Okapi, Tufted deer, Bongo, Red river hog, Bison, Philippine spotted deer, Red forest buffalo, Southern pudu, Black rhino, Malayan tapir, Asian elephant

    Blijdorp keeps one species more than Plzen. Plzen keeps slightly more rarities, but has less diversity at a family level. It should be noted that Visayan warty pig were first imported by Blijdorp (4.4 with a quarantine in Poznan) and they are the basis for the whole European population. Together with TP Berlin Blijdorp was also paramount in establishing Tufted deer and Sichuan takin in Europe.

    In terms of enclosures Plzen might have the edge when it comes to animal husbandry. Some smallish enclosures are there and particularly the Pygmy hippo accomodation strikes me as far from optimal. Blijdorp is however also not the greatest in terms of enclosures, with the new development for Black rhino and Pygmy hippo in particular being underwhelming. This development was however successful from an architectural point of view and Blijdorp has what is possibly the most elegant Giraffe house on the continent. Hoofstock enclosures in Blijdorp are often memorable, where none really stick in Plzen.

    I would be happy with a tie here, but I am leaning slightly towards Blijdorp.
     
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  4. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Blijdorp is fresh in my mind from my summer visit (in the company of @sooty mangabey ) and the excellent analysis of @lintworm has led me to vote 2-1 Blijdorp in this close contest.
     
  5. Ebirah766

    Ebirah766 Well-Known Member

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    I'm giving this one to Rotterdam, they have a lot more species as well as a good amount of shared species. 3-0 Rotterdam is my vote.
     
  6. CGSwans

    CGSwans Well-Known Member

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    This is demonstrably not true. As established earlier in the thread, Rotterdam has one more species than Plzen does.
     
  7. Ebirah766

    Ebirah766 Well-Known Member

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    Oh. I didn't count. Well that's still more species...
     
  8. amur leopard

    amur leopard Well-Known Member

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    Hi all
    Not back yet but I had a small window of time in which to post so here goes.
    I haven’t visited either of the institutions in question (mainly because both of the cities are not touristic and quite industrial, and how little say teens have in deciding trips).
    All I can say is that though @lintworm’s post is very enlightening, I would certainly like to see some photos, because I don’t yet understand the extent of the gap between the two in exhibitry, husbandry, etc...
    Thanks all
    Have a nice rest of week :)


    EDIT: would also love to hear from @TeaLovingDave and @FunkyGibbon (or anyone who voted 2-1 Plzen) for their interpretation :)
     
  9. twilighter

    twilighter Well-Known Member

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    This looks like another interesting match. Have been only in Plzen and was pleasantly surprised by Ungulate collection there. The mega-fauna is rarely mentioned, when people talk about Plzen, since the Rhino, Giraffe and Hippo are fairly new inhabitants. Focus is always on Birds, reptiles and mostly on small mammals. Nevertheless I am thinking, that Plzen has what to offer. The African Water Holes with Chapman's Zebras and Lechwe and neighbor Savanna with Rothschild Giraffes,Greater Kudu, Blesbuck and Nyala are not something unforgettable, but are really spacious with a lot of green plants and nice water bodies. In the Giraffe / Rhino house with African ungulate pavilion, you can meet the antelopes eye to eye. In Plains of India, One-horned rhino, Blackbuck and Rusa deer grazing together. Canadian north can offer three very intrigue and rare for Europe species: Tule elk, Dall's sheep and Californian Bighorn sheep, which also have visible outdoor stables. The Pygmy hippo lake is probably one of the best enclosure for the species. The Chinese Goral has nice rocky exibit, The Vicunia enclosure fits well in the South American Pampas. The only ungulate, that not feels very comfortably is probably the Northern Warthog, which is quite close to the Cheetah.

    I understand the Rotterdam is the better zoo and probably the favorite here, whit the remarkable Giraffe house, Elephants husbandry and endangered species like Visayan spotted deer, Addra gazelle and Visayan warty pig, but I believe, that Plzen ungulate collection deserved to be mentioned and I will vote 2:1 in their favor.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2019
  10. FunkyGibbon

    FunkyGibbon Well-Known Member

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    I would also just say that I have visited Plzen and not Rotterdam (yet). I think Plzen has very good enclosures, and comparing the collections I find it appeals more to my taste.
    I'm happy to consider a switch if someone makes a case that Rotterdam is actually better in some measureable way. At the moment I'm not sure why it is so far ahead, and I fear it's because people are applying the rule of thumb that Plzen's good collection is marred by small enclosures, which is not the case for ungulates.
     
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  11. vogelcommando

    vogelcommando Well-Known Member

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    Never been to Plzen ( yet ) but countless times to Rotterdam and its one of my favorite zoos. This combined with what lintworm writes about the 2 collections make me to give a 2-1 score in favour of Rotterdam.
     
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  12. NSU42

    NSU42 Well-Known Member

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    So where does the difference in these two opinions about the pygmy hippo enclosure at Plzen come from? @lintworm says that it is "far from optimal," which to me means that it isn't a very good enclosure, but then @twilighter says that its "one of the best" for pygmy hippos. I think their is a lot of similarity in what you guys said about the enclosures at Plzen, but I'm curious about the thinking for each of you behind this particular enclosure as we seem to have a huge variation in opinion here.
     
  13. twilighter

    twilighter Well-Known Member

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    The Pygmy hippo in Plzen have access to a big lake and a whole island together with the Black-and-White Colobus. May be @lintworm refers to the indoor part ? 20191007_115953.jpg
    20191007_092215.jpg
     
  14. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, first things first - I think that the following post by twilighter rather sums my feelings up well:

    I'd like to particularly echo the remarks about how good the African savannah and Plains of India exhibits are, and the fact that the various exhibits for caprine species are also highlights.

    The mixed African savannah exhibit at Rotterdam, centred on the giraffe house, is certainly excellent - however I would tend to argue that it is the only truly memorable hoofstock exhibit at the collection, whereas as noted above I think the complex of several large hoofstock exhibits on the lower levels of Plzen is a real highlight and something of an overlooked strength of the collection as a whole
     
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  15. NSU42

    NSU42 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your response. Its awesome they have acces to a lake. But new question, can they actually get up on that island? From the looks of it, I would say those rocks that look to go around the island probably prevent them from doing so. I currently am sitting 2-1 Plzen, but am curious.
     
    Last edited: 23 Oct 2019
  16. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    I think your calculations are slightly off......

    PLZEN: 27 TAXA

    Domestic: 5

    Bos primigenius f. taurus
    Camelus ferus f. bactrianus
    Capra aegagrus f. hircus
    Equus ferus f. caballus
    Ovis orientalis f. aries

    Elephant: 0

    Even-toed: 18

    Antilope cervicapra
    Bison bonasus
    Cervus canadensis nannodes
    Choeropsis liberiensis liberiensis
    Damaliscus pygargus phillipsi
    Giraffa camelopardalis rothschildi
    Kobus leche kafuensis
    Muntiacus reevesi reevesi
    Naemorhedus griseus arnouxianus
    Ovibos moschatus moschatus
    Ovis canadensis californiana
    Ovis dalli dalli
    Pecari tajacu
    Phacochoerus africanus africanus
    Rusa timorensis
    Tragelaphus angasii
    Tragelaphus strepsiceros
    Vicugna vicugna

    Odd-toed: 4

    Equus hemionus kulan
    Equus kiang holdereri
    Equus quagga chapmani
    Rhinoceros unicornis


    ROTTERDAM: 24 TAXA

    Domestic: 1

    Camelus ferus f. bactrianus

    Elephant: 1

    Elephas maximus

    Even-toed: 18

    Antilope cervicapra
    Bison bison bison
    Bos javanicus javanicus
    Choeropsis liberiensis liberiensis
    Elaphodus cephalophus michianus
    Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata
    Nanger dama mhorr
    Okapia johnstoni
    Potamochoerus porcus
    Pudu puda
    Rangifer tarandus fennicus
    Rusa alfredi
    Sus cebifrons negrinus
    Syncerus caffer nanus
    Tragelaphus eurycerus isaaci
    Tragelaphus strepsiceros
    Tragulus nigricans
    Vicugna vicugna

    Odd-toed: 4

    Diceros bicornis michaeli
    Equus quagga chapmani
    Rhinoceros unicornis
    Tapirus indicus

    So in point of fact, Plzen has more hoofstock taxa than does Rotterdam - this being primarily due to the sizeable and very pleasant collection of rare domestic breeds displayed near the top of the zoo.
     
  17. twilighter

    twilighter Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they can. The source is the Guide and I think, this is the concrete stairs they are using.
    20191007_120030.jpg
     
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  18. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    I am not sure whether or not they can get onto the Colobus island or not, but I do know they have an off-display area of land immediately behind their house - and of course, they also have access to the entire lake around the house and the colobus island. The following map shows the extent of the aforementioned lake - the divide between this and the moat for the savannah and plains exhibits is quite clear, as is the size of said exhibits:

    [​IMG]

    And some more photos of the outdoor exhibit:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. TeaLovingDave

    TeaLovingDave Moderator Staff Member

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    I suspect you are correct - the best remedy for which is to bring photographs of the Plzen exhibits to the attention of the masses, as follows:

    Pygmy Hippopotamus - already covered in my post above.

    Mixed African Savannah (Giraffe and Kudu):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Mixed African Savannah (Zebra and Lechwe):

    [​IMG]

    Mixed Asian Highlands:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Plains of India:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Goral:

    [​IMG]

    Tule Elk:

    [​IMG]

    ----

    Strangely, the gallery seems to be more or less bereft of any photographs of the exhibits for Dall's Sheep or Californian Bighorn - I'll have to look through my photos from 2017 and last month to see if I can plug that gap. I'll see if I can find any better photographs of the Zebra/Lechwe exhibit too.
     
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  20. twilighter

    twilighter Well-Known Member

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    Dall's sheep. California Bighorn and the Tule Elk enclosures are respectively first and second behind. 20191007_102943.jpg


    Zebra/Lechwe/Ostrich
    20191007_092529.jpg

    Great Kudu / Bontebok / Giraffe enclosure
    20191007_152400.jpg

    Nyala
    20191007_115702.jpg
    Vicuna
    20191007_113758.jpg

    Reeves Muntjac enclosure
    20191007_113736.jpg
    Tule Elk enclosure
    20191007_125103.jpg
     
    Last edited: 23 Oct 2019