So you dont want to antoganise each other. Yet you use the term DH. How old are you? We are on zoochat here mate settle down. You would not use that term face to face so pull your head in!
Yikes! I guess you are NOT "DH" -- as in the actual initials of a certain famous former zoo director who now lives in your area! As to how old I am, I guess I'm not old enough to know WHAT "a DH" is! Sorry about the misunderstanding! I was NOT insulting you, but rather asking you if you were who I thought you might be. Are we clear on that now?
Dont know what you are talking about BR. Why you would ignore the subject matter we were discusing. Thast that gorillas at CGF would probably spend app 70% of there life in a barred not naturalistic enclosure.
Yes, humans are "technically" (biologically) part of the animal kingdom. I don't deny that animals have some "human-like" emotions, but they do not at all have human personalities -- which many seem to assign to them. If they did, then maybe we should ask them what they think of the War on Terror, or if they like President Obama, or who they think will win the NBA basketball championship this year. If they have human personalities, why don't we abandon all of these beautiful zoo habitats and give the animals hotel rooms with room service? Sorry if this sounds flippant, but I hope you know what I'm saying. Yes, humans and animals are similar, but they're also very, very different! Let's not go to Darwinism! There's already enough controversy going on! Let me clarify my "hardly any major problems" quote. When I said that, I defined "problems" as a case where animals were suffering. As to the 60+ major zoos in the USA that I've visited in the past 2 years, NO, I have not seen ANY cases where it appeared to me that the animals were suffering! Of course I saw many instances where the animals could be provided for better, and their exhibit homes could definitely be improved. But "suffering", no, I didn't see any such cases.
Yikes, that was NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT what I was referring to!!! I hope you know that now! But sorry about the misunderstanding.
We may be "very, very different" but a snow leopard is very different from a flat-worm, you would not suggest, for this reason, that snow leopards are somehow outside of the animal kingdom. And, as to your point, I think most on this site are mentally proficient enough to work at that we can't ask the animals nor discover their answers due to the fact that animals can't talk (I shan't mention Washoe, Coco etc. ). If this barrier didn't exist, than yes, I doubt they would be able to give an answer as our personality is far more developed but that does not mean to say that theirs does not exist (btw I notice that all of the examples that you use are distinctly human - why not ask them what they think about the destruction of the congo rainfoest or the bushmeat trade...) Let's get something straight, high-rise flats are not our natural habitat, they are a culture in some highly populated areas. There are still some tribes that live in mud huts - culture is not the same as personality and it is not our personality to want room service. And, anyway, what do you find so worrying about the concept of animals having personalities. At congo gorilla forest at bronx, one gorilla was always the first to explore new habitats. She was bold, that was her personality, ask anyone who has spent even a small amount of time with animals and they will tell you such. All animals have different traits, they have different personalities.
@redpanda: No one was doubting animals had personalities. Yes, ALL animals have a personality, but you can't assume that a gorilla looking through the glass at you in an intense stare is a depressed gorilla. My problem is when people at zoos look at animals and assign them human emotions, and assume they are depressed because they look like they are showing a particular human emotion. An animal, like a gorilla, may show a certain emotion like depression differently from a human. Sorry if that didn't make sense as I really did not know how to word it.
Guess we will alll be doing allot of deep soul searching if/when we find out that our emotions are very close if not the same as animals. This is an extract from a book. That l think perfectly illistrates my point and the need for a open mind. QUOTE Even in the last century, American newspapers were afraid to print an account of the Wright brothers´ first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley´s flying machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that the best mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in full swing. But in most fields our generation has witnessed complete liberation in thinking. Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, "I bet they do it-maybe not so long either." Is not our age characterized by the ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something new which does? QUOTE All l am saying is that it is important to keep an open mind.
How do I not have an open mind? I am basing my opinion on that too many people assume all zoo animals are depressed, and I disagree with that. How is that not an open mind?
Thankyou for clarifying that, I agree. Many people look at an animal and, just because it is sitting doing nothing, assume that it is bored or depressed. It takes an ethological study to discover what facial expressions and body language means and, even then, it can still be uncertain.
We don't know what other humans are feeling most of the time! Seriously, we don't, in general, know what we ourselves are feeling! So we do assume that that person is "sad" when perhaps she is feeling anxious and excited and confused - or that the orang is sad (when in fact she is hungry or curious, but she has those eyes!). My way to express excitement or grief may be seriously different from yours! And that is true for people within the same culture! (Last Tuesday's NYTimes had an interesting article on the role and effect of crying, how there are cultural expectations of how people "ought" to express themselves and the consequences for people who - for whatever reason - do not follow the script.) And yet we debate not only whether animals have feelings, but just what those feeling are. How do you feel about this? (No head bobbing or pacing, please )
